Greg Phillinganes and Rory Kaplan work with some of the biggest names in music, including the King of Pop himself, Michael Jackson. You remember this bit? Well, that’s me. That was you? Yeah. On the Bad Tour, it was 1,000% controlled by Michael, every aspect. Was Michael a perfectionist? Yeah.
For him, it wasn’t hard, it was his work ethic. I love you. Hey y’all, it’s DJ Khaled. Hey, this is Kim Kardashian. This is Mike Tyson. Chuck the Iceman Liddell. This is Martin Kove. This is Sugar Ray Leonard. And you’re watching Before the Fame. Before the Fame.
Before the Fame. Before the Fame. Before the Fame with Mike Sherman. Mike Sherman, don’t ever stop. Hi everybody, welcome to Before the Fame, and I’m your host, Mike Sherman. Today, I’m out in Sherman Oaks, California, on Ventura Boulevard, standing in front of Record One Recording Studios.
Now, this is where the Jacksons and Michael Jackson laid down some of the biggest hits from the ’70s, ’80s, and ’90s. Greg Phillinganes and Rory Kaplan work with some of the biggest names in music, such as Aretha Franklin, Eric Clapton, Barbra Streisand, Stevie Wonder, and none other than the King of Pop himself, Michael Jackson.
Yeah. Beat it. Go. Beat it. Show them that you’re really something with the fame. Rory Kaplan was weaned on the likes of Frank Sinatra and Henry Mancini. And then all that changed when he first heard The Beatles playing on the keyboards alongside Chick Corea and Stevie Wonder in the ’70s and ’80s, Rory would introduce a new sound technology to Michael and join him on
tour starting in 1984. Greg Phillinganes was discovered by Stevie Wonder at the age of 19. His three-decade-long involvement with MJ began in 1978 with The Jacksons. And his contributions to the King of Pop’s song catalog have become some of the most recognizable sounds in pop music history.
[singing] [singing] This is the Destiny album. Tell me about that album. Well, it’s great. The I was brought on to do rhythm arrangements and that was one of the ones I did. And I even came up with the drum beat to that song, too. And uh but the very first thing I did was I wrote this track.
[singing] [music and singing] That’s the first arrangement I did for them. And then it went on from there and there and then But did you write that part? Oh no, no, no. I just I I arranged it though. You arranged it. Okay. But uh the song was this Actually, the song was written by this uh this British duo, I think.
Right. And it was really like milk toast sounding. Like And they And you livened it up. kind of made made it a little some energy in it. A little funk in it. Yeah. In those early years, Greg became a close personal friend of the Jackson family, especially Michael. So much so that in between tour stops, he accompanied them to amusement parks and Disney World.
The Jackson family embraced you almost as one of their own. Like you were like another brother. It certainly felt like it. They were wonderful to me. Um you know, I would I would call Katherine mother just like they did, you know, and and uh she’s incredibly sweet. And we we had a great rapport.
We worked really well together because you know, I guess maybe it’s cuz I was just as young and crazy as they were. Yeah. You know, but but uh They’re from Indiana, you’re from Detroit. So you guys are Midwestern guys. Exactly. Exactly. So it was a common bond. As Michael’s star within the Jacksons was rising, producer Quincy Jones was already making plans for his first solo album.
And then um then we went from there to the Triumph album. Mhm. But in between those two albums is when Quincy asked me to come on board to uh work on the Off the Wall album. I know that album like yesterday. It was my favorite album. I was graduating high school and that album was just as we say bananas. Yeah.
It was uh That was a great great album. It was a pivotal moment in uh Michael’s career because, you know, Quincy wanted to establish him as uh as an adult. Right. And so, uh you know, he took a giant leap forward with that. [singing] Off the Wall spawned four top-10 hits, the second of which featured a Greg Phillinganes signature hook.
[singing] [music and singing] You remember this, [ __ ] Right? Yeah. Well, that’s me. That was you? Yeah. That was Of course I remember that. In 1982, the Thriller album changed the popular music landscape and the title track is a classic example of Greg Phillinganes doing what he does best, including the pipe organ heard under Vincent Price’s iconic No mere mortal can resist the dating of the the thriller.
You had all this experience working with with Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson. Yeah. And Michael, I guess started to put a lot of interest into you and wanted you to come on his on his tours now, right? He wanted you to start being more part of his group? Yeah, he had a very interesting way of asking.
[laughter] How would he ask? Well, we were in the studio working on the Bad album, you know, and every once in a while he would say, “You you really enjoy touring, don’t you?” And I go, “Yeah, yeah.” And you know, more time would go on and then he’d say, “You enjoy live audiences, don’t you?” [laughter] And he’d say, “Do you like to travel?” And I go, “Yeah, yeah.
” And he would say, “You you enjoy big And I thought, “What are you getting at?” And I finally went, “Oh, you want me to tour with you.” And he was like, Greg graduated from a session musician to musical director for both the Bad and Dangerous tours, which were seen by a collective total of 8.
4 million people across 15 countries. The Bad tour alone spanned 16 months and 123 concerts, earning a record $125 million. So now, I saw a clip where you and Michael were in the same sync choreograph you were choreographed where he comes over to you as he’s singing and you guys are kind of like, “Oh yeah, we’re doing our little signature thing.
” That signature thing and and you look like you were having a blast. He was having a blast. Oh, absolutely. Well, there was a lot of love there, A, and B, that was near the end of the show when he’s introducing everybody and he’d come over to me and we’d do this little thing. Yeah, yeah, it was pretty cool.
But uh yeah, but I mean, you haven’t lived, man, until you’re again, you’re standing but 10 ft behind him and you look out in the stadium and you’re seeing everybody like torches, not iPhones, but real torches while you’re doing this. I know, I was one of those person those people doing that in the back, up in the top row.
And you hear the you know, you’re playing the intro and you see it the whole stadium light up and you’re watching him uh it it it’s just absolutely magic. In addition to his solo efforts, Greg Phillinganes has been involved in the production of over 100 albums from pop to R&B to country and beyond.
He won an Emmy in 2015 and was the musical director for the 2016 Grammy Awards. You’re probably one of the only people other than Rory that had a chance to play with one of the Beatles, okay? Ringo Starr. You played with Stevie Wonder, okay? Another major icon. You’re a gifted individual. How does that make you feel? Blessed and extremely humbled.
You are a very humble guy. You’re one of the coolest guys I’ve met and and it seems it it’s so great to to meet someone that is as talented as you but yet is so humble like yourself. Well, look, I I uh was also blessed to learn from the greats and the greats like Quincy Jones uh you know, showed me.
They they never really said it but they just showed me in their in their actions that you don’t have to you know, you don’t have to tell people how you are. You’re what you do speaks for itself. And I’ve always uh made that my mission to let what I do speak for itself. So, um yeah, you know, it makes a difference.
Welcome back. You’re watching Before the Fame and I’m your host Mike Sherman. Now, the other keyboardist on the Victory and Bad Tours, Rory Kaplan, had a very unique and interesting introduction to the Jacksons. I asked him to tell me all about it when we sat down at his piano at his home in Simi Valley, California.
You know, you play with so many major superstars. But one of the biggest that I have to dive into right now is Michael Jackson. Yeah. Okay. Now, I I’ve seen some of your footage online and I’ve seen you on stage with him, you know, with all the colorful clothes and you know, I saw your hairstyle back then with the earrings and and all that cool stuff.
When you got the call or had an opportunity to work with MJ, tell me about that. Well, the story comes out of Fairlight. And Fairlight called me up and said, “Jermaine Jackson bought a Fairlight. Will you train him?” Sure. And I show up and Jermaine had these two baby, probably 2-month-old Bengal tigers.
Right. Playing on the front lawn. And I’m like, “Boy, am I in a new world.” Mike Tyson probably scared the neighbors. I was just like, “Wow.” So, I go in the house and there’s a room set up at the Fairlight and I’m showing Jermaine. And I came back two or three times. And he finally said, “I’m not going to learn this.
” He said, “My brothers and I are doing a tour next year. Do you want to do it?” I’m like, “Yes, you know, of course.” During the rehearsals for the Victory Tour, Rory and his Fairlight got Michael’s attention and thus created a whole new sound. Michael shows up 4 days later. He was at the White House with President Reagan doing the anti-drug campaign.
Mhm. So, he shows up and the back door opens. Michael had his just flown in from DC, so he had the blue marching sequined uh the the um jacket, Right. the sash and the sunglasses. Oh, yeah, yeah. And the glove, the whole thing. Michael. Michael being Michael. And we were just Everyone’s job was on the floor.
Like it was surreal, you know? So, he came in and Jermaine’s introducing them to us and then comes up to me and and he goes, “Did anyone tell you you look like Paul McCartney?” And I started laughing and I and I I said, you know, “No, no.” And and so, he said, “What’s this instrument?” So, I showed him the Fairlight.
I showed him these orchestra hits that we had just done with Fairlight. And he goes, “Wait, wait, wait. I got an idea.” So, he hits the band to play Startin’ Something. So Michael, when we hit this part, I want to hit that orchestra hit. So it’s like the do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do So then he said, “Every time we do that, I want you to hit that orchestra hit and and we’re going to do a dance move that, you know.” So Michael in his head already heard it. He’s already working on it. So we started So it was the first song we did as a band with me involved and then it just evolved. And during the tour, I learned a lot and I had to deal with a lot of personalities and I was the definitely the low guy on the totem With the Thriller album and the Victory Tour happening simultaneously, MJ’s desire to be in charge was becoming more apparent. You saw Michael in kind of two facets of his career. You saw him playing with his brothers in the early
’80s. That Victory Tour was was incredible. And then you also saw him later on in his life on the Bad Tour when he was solo. So was he a different Michael compared to when he was with his brothers compared to when he when he was solo? It was mixed. So on on the Victory Tour, I think Michael didn’t look always happy.
I think he wanted to run everything. He had the vision to control. He wanted more control. But it was an equal vote. It was a democratic thing. And he would get voted down sometimes and and so it was frustrating. You could see it but you didn’t talk about it. So on the Bad Tour, it was 1,000% controlled by Michael. Every aspect.
Who was choreography, who was doing this, who was going to be involved, the lighting, sound, how we’re going to do this, how he envisioned the production and everything. The forest consciousness and being alert and musicianship you guys are one of the Thanks. I can say the same for wearable technology. They they come on stage and Was Michael a perfectionist? Yeah.
People think, “Okay, we’re in the We’re rehearsing the band and this now.” While we were rehearsing getting our music together, he was doing 13 hours with the with the dancers in one building and then going to the other building to work with the background singers and work on vocals. Wow.
So, it wasn’t so So, so yes. Pushing himself hard. Well, he was just doing what he does. It was For him it wasn’t hard. It was his work ethic. Running almost non-stop from September 1987 to January 1989, the Bad tour proved to be a production marathon. One night, about 50 shows into the tour, Rory saw something happen on stage he simply couldn’t believe.
We were in Würzburg, Germany and just was one of those magic shows where Michael had this amazing amount of energy. We get to Billie Jean and and everything goes dark, spotlight comes down, and Ricky comes in you know, and everyone’s screaming. So, I do the you know, the the I’m playing and my keyboard the upper keyboard I’m standing up at the keyboard was high.
I had three keyboards. So, it was high up and I can only see Michael’s knees above. I couldn’t see him, you know, full. full. And we’re playing and all of a sudden I’m watching Michael and it was like he was on a conveyor belt cuz nothing from here is moving. He’s just You see a body just moving through the air.
see a body going sideways like this. So, I get on my tippy toes and reach over the keyboard to see if there’s a conveyor belt on the stage. Right. I flipped out. Like I was like, but I lost my place in the song. I went I lost my focus. I went, “Oh, no. So, Greg looks at me, “It’s okay.
Three, four, bump.” You know, I’m back in and you know, pulled you right back got me right back in. After the show, I get this thing from Michael. “Rory, what happened?” And I said, “Michael, I was watching you go sideways on the stage. I thought the road crew put a conveyor belt in there. I looked over my keyboards and I lost my place.
It’ll never happen again. And he started laughing. Wow. Cuz you know, because it struck him funny that it had that impact on his own band member. And just like with Greg Phillinganes, Michael Jackson was not just a boss, but a friend to Rory off stage. So you were pretty close to Mike. We got to do a few things like on the Victory Tour, he took me to see Doug Doug Henning.
We went to see him at the Fox Theater in Atlanta. And after the show we were invited backstage and he had a black panther and a tiger there. That was part of the show. Uh-huh. So the panther, someone’s walking the panther towards us and Michael grabs me and puts me in front of him. No. He had a sense of humor.
Yeah, he had a sense of humor at the same time. cool. Yeah, you know, it was it was funny. And and I’m looking at this panther going, “Oh my god, if this thing ripped, we’d be dead, all of us.” What kind of legacy, this is an easy question, do you think Michael Jackson left to the music world? Well, if you look at a handful of current artists like Bruno Mars, Janet, Beyoncé, that persona of entertainers, it’s not just singers.
There’s a lot of singers out there, but entertainers who know how to move to the rhythm, how to hit certain accents on chords in the song. Michael perfected that. He brought Bob Fosse, Gene Kelly, and Fred Astaire into the main world of pop. So Michael’s, you know, stood on tall shoulders and these people now are standing on Michael’s shoulders.
If you had something to say to Michael Jackson right now, I mean, he’s another legend, what would you tell him? Michael’s so dearly missed and not just for me, but the integrity of our industry has the bar’s lowered so much in the last decade for me. I’m not saying there’s not good artists out there.
We’re not going to get into to playing that game. But Michael kept the bar so high. Yeah. Singers like Whitney Houston or Lennon McCartney or Stevie Wonder, that bar you didn’t get there unless you were that good. Mhm. And a lot of the talent I hear now some of it lacks inspiration or something original or something inspiring.
What Michael did for Off the Wall, Thriller, and Bad for me was blow my socks off. There’ll be other people that come around that’ll be great. Mhm. But there’ll never be another Mozart or Lennon McCartney or Dylan or a Michael I think we both agree there’ll never be another Michael Jackson. Yeah, yeah. There just won’t be.
And and it’s okay. You know, it it God gives us gifts and if we get them we’re lucky, you know. That was great, Randy. Yeah, I mean those are the those are the gems. Well, guys, that’s our show for today. I really hope you enjoyed it. But tune in for next week’s show where once again we go down memory lane of some of the biggest names in sports, music, and entertainment all before the fame.
And follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. I’m Mike Sherman. Thanks for watching.
