Epstein survivor’s darkest memories from Zorro Ranch | 60 Minutes Australia –  ty

Epstein survivor’s darkest memories from Zorro Ranch | 60 Minutes Australia –  ty

Today, how much of a struggle is life for you? >> Um Gosh, no one’s ever asked me that. Um Wow, you went right in there. >> [laughter] [gasps] >> Um I would say that right now in this moment in time, um it’s probably harder for me right now, um than it has been in years before because um I’m dealing with all of this in a more broader spectrum, and it’s now affecting different parts of my life that I didn’t realize before that it would because you don’t know until you’re there.

Um [snorts] so, um in some ways I feel like it was almost easier when nobody knew and we didn’t have to talk about what happened and just sweep it under the rug and go on with our lives, and although it was still affecting me physically in those days, um seeing now all the loss that it’s brought coming forward, um I would say that you know, life’s not easy right now, but um Gosh, I’m crying first question.

>> Sorry. I’m sorry, Shante. >> [snorts] >> Um Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s a challenge what not just my I I know that I can only speak for myself, but I also know by speaking to some of the other survivors that they’re also experiencing um a lot of loss in their life, people abandoning them that were supposed to be in their corner.

Um you know, not having job opportunities because your name is splattered all over the headlines. >> Despite talking about the impact the exposure is having on you, you you you’re still there, you’re still talking, you’re still being open about this despite the cost. Where do you find the strength to do that? >> Well, I don’t always find that strength.

I don’t. Um I feel like there’s definitely been moments where I’ve let it get the best of me and it’s been hard to sometimes get off the couch on certain days. Um And I had a I had a good couple of weeks where I was really kind of wallowing in all the things that I’ve lost because of this and all the people that have left me because of this and all the you know, just all the things.

Um and I heard one of the other survivors speak. Um And it was Lisa Phillips and she said something along the lines about it not being about her at a certain point anymore. You know, it’s it’s continuing to speak and continuing to talk about all of this to for [snorts] every little girl who’s sitting somewhere right now where it’s currently happening to them and they are afraid to say anything or to all the girls who it’s already happened to and they still don’t want to say anything.

I think that it’s important to keep on fighting even when we feel defeated. Um and I um I I I find strength also in knowing that because we’ve all been given some sort of platform by this that we can find ways to help make good come out of this. >> Do you believe the release of the Epstein files has been an action for good or or or not? >> Oh, um I think that it’s a bit of both.

I think that the release of the Epstein files has in some ways been good because it’s it’s ousted a lot of people. Um But it’s also not been good because it’s put a lot of of women who did not want to come forward and um you know Jane Does and the and the um compensation funds and whatnot and >> [snorts] >> um some of their information was leaked.

I know that there a lot of girls have received threats um And then there’s also a lot of dark stuff in there that on the one hand I’m glad that people were able to see that, but on the other hand it’s it’s almost like what was the point because now we’ve all seen what’s there and there’s all kinds of memes and social media clips and things being talked about, but there’s some really dark things in those Epstein files and nothing’s really being done about it, at least not in the US.

>> So for all the talk there’s not much action is what you’re saying. >> Yes. It it’s it’s almost creating a space where it’s naturalizing, normalizing pedophilia or um child rape or any kind of rape um because there is so much of that in there and it’s just being brushed off the table like like it’s not real. >> Now I I’m worried to talk to you about um the abuse that you suffered, but but to understand the trauma that you’ve described um let’s go into it a little bit, but if you don’t want to that’s fine. I understand. In terms of

the abuse that Jeffrey Epstein meted against you we know that he had number of properties. Where where did he take you and where did he abuse you? >> So, the first abuse happened on the island. Um and then um there were multiple instances um at Zorro Ranch. Um New York Paris Palm Beach um Saint-Tropez >> [snorts] >> um That’s Yeah.

>> And And what form did that abuse take? >> Rape. Yeah, it was full-on forced-on sexual um rape. >> Were you trafficked to others? >> It’s an interesting question because this is another This is another thing that in the beginning I would have been flabbergasted to suggest that that happened to me. And when it When When that started getting When that word was being used, I was very uncomfortable because I was like, “That’s That’s not what happened.

That didn’t happen to me. He was just forcing himself on me.” As time has gone on and I have listened to other women speak and piece together meetings that he set up for me not knowing that that’s what that was. Now I know that that’s what that was. And it never went further because I didn’t allow it to. I You know, I would uh I had a a producer ask me to go He Jeffrey had sent me to meet with a producer, big producer. I auditioned for a movie.

And then he asked me to go canoeing with him. Um and I said no. And did not go. And I now I’ve heard that person’s name come up multiple times, you know, now. And so now I know that that’s most likely what that was. He was trying to traffic me. And there were a few other situations like that that again didn’t end up being that, but could have been.

Had I I I think that because I was a little bit older, because I was an actual massage therapist, and because I was also already in a way connected to Hollywood without him. I had already been there. I had connections on on my own. So, for those reasons, I think that people did not push it as much as they maybe did with other people.

>> Out of all those places, was there a particular spot that that was more sinister and more scary than the others for you? >> Well, I mean, mhm because of what was going on, it was all very sinister. It But, of all the locations, I would say Zora Ranch was probably the most eerie, um, just because it was just you know, I’m I’m sure that there is plenty of rooms that I never even saw and I was there several times.

Um, just giant and quiet and literally in the middle of nowhere and miles and miles of just mountains and dirt for miles and the inside was very much like, I mean, almost like when you would see like haunted mansions and like cartoons or something. That’s That’s And mean, I think of Zora Ranch, that’s what the picture that comes in my mind.

It’s just very um cold and quiet and you know. Yeah. >> What did go on at Zorro? >> Um well, I can tell you what went on for me. I again, like I I don’t want to speak for anybody else and I know many survivors have many different stories. I’ve I’ve definitely heard a lot of women talk about things that I had no memory of or um um you know, it wasn’t my experience.

Um what my experience was what I would I would say that of all the locations that I traveled to with Jeffrey and Ghislaine that that probably I would if I were to call someplace like the grooming location, the grooming property, it would have been that. Um that’s that it was um Zorro Ranch is a very isolated location.

I often wondered what the appeal was because there was literally nothing around for miles and miles and miles. Um and that was a location that, you know, um every single time I would be taken there I I would get a stomach ache even before we’d get to the property. Um very isolated, very eerie, um very very large.

I don’t remember what the square footage of it, but it’s it’s huge and um um I spent a lot of time with Ghislaine Ghislaine there. Um and that’s why I call it like the the grooming property because my memories of Zorro Ranch if not by myself wandering about the house um aimlessly just looking at things or, you know, trying to waste time until I knew I would have to be called on again.

Um I you know, I’d go horseback riding with Ghislaine and we went riding on ATVs and hikes and a trip to the theater once and um that’s that’s where the conversations happened when they talked to me about sending me to school. Um Just yeah, I mean it was it was a lot I mean Ghislaine would always um you know, offer to let me hang out in the kitchen cuz she knew I was very passionate about cooking and so I’d spend a lot of time in there connecting with the kitchen staff or the chef that they had at the time.

Um You know, I I feel like Zorro Ranch for me is a lot of me trying to place happy memories if you will on top of all the dark stuff that was happening behind literally closed doors. >> Yeah, Virginia Giuffre described Zorro as Disneyland. Because of the horse riding I guess and and the outdoors nature of it and the and and the and as you say all those grooming aspects that were on offer.

But like Disneyland and and theme parks like that there’s always a house of horrors, isn’t there? >> Mhm. >> Did the castle fit into the house of horrors analogy? >> Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Um Yeah, I mean there was a lot of time spent in my room at Zorro feeling very much like a mouse trapped in its cage just kind of waiting until someone would come to my door and say Jeffrey’s ready for his massage now.

And I would always be sick to my stomach, back and forth to the bathroom. And yeah, it was if it very it felt almost like a goldfish in a bowl or a mouse in a cage, like just you’re just sitting there and everyone can see you and you’re just waiting for whatever it is that you’re waiting for. >> [snorts] >> When you’re told that Jeffrey’s ready for his massage now, what did that really mean? >> Well, it would always start as a normal massage.

I mean, I was a certified massage therapist at the time. Um and you know, in in my egoic head at 20-something years old, I thought it was quite good, which is why I thought they had hired me, you know, I really believed I was very skilled at being a massage therapist. So, he would always it would always start as a regular massage and then he would flip over and that’s when, you know, the the darkness would come about.

>> The abuse. >> Mhm. >> So, how often would you go to Zorro? >> Um >> [sighs] >> I mean, maybe a couple times a year. Yeah. Um they would they would they would fly me commercially to the Santa Fe airport and then they would have a driver meet me at the airport and drive me to the ranch. >> If you wanted help, if you felt that you could cry out for help, was there anyone around to help you? >> Oh, absolutely not. No.

I mean absolutely not. And and I think that that was part of their game is that they knew that. They they chose girls that they knew wouldn’t be screaming and waving around and trying to you know, make people hear them. Um Um, so yeah, I mean >> [sighs] >> yeah, it’s it’s there’s a lot of strange memories at Orrery Ranch.

Um Ghislaine’s dog actually actually was like just found dead in a fountain one day. Um, just weird eerie things that would go on. Um that just make the whole saga fit just a little bit more icky. >> Of course. How How did you find Ghislaine in those days? >> My first massage teacher, he was, you know, like a massage guru, if you will, to celebrities and and wealthy people and um and so my first training was with him before I even went to massage school.

And he they were already Jeffrey and Ghislaine were already his clients. And so it was not strange for me to go along with him on his appointments cuz I was his apprentice and I was training. Um, and there was an appointment one day just like any other day that he said, you know, I want you to come along. I’m meeting a, you know, a client of mine. She’s flying in from New York.

We’re going to meet her at um Four Seasons Hotel. Um, and so I went along and um, met her and um she spent the majority of the time probing me, asking me for all, you know, everything about myself and the details of you know, my family and my past and my goals and dreams and basically just, you know, asked me a thousand questions while she got worked on.

>> [snorts] >> So no warning signs of of why she was asking? >> Um, not at all. I mean, now looking back, now I see, but um you know, you’re young and you just you think that you’re so special and there’s you know, this very successful and charismatic woman taking interest in you and um yeah, I mean, I I truly believed at that point that my life was going to be just this big amazing career and you know, all the things.

I was going to have it all. So, her asking me those kinds of questions at that time, I was just it was just feeding into me feeling like, yeah, I’m special, you know, and she likes me. She wants to help me. >> [snorts] >> Yeah, and from your old times at Zara, it sounds like you had quite a close friendship or connection.

>> Yeah, this was our initial meeting. This was the first time we had met. Um but yeah, as time grew, I mean, she that after that initial meeting, we flew out the very next morning on her jet to Palm Beach. I flew with her alone. Um and yeah, I mean, from the get-go she was very very friendly and warm and um just you know, the kind of person that you thought that was going to help you build your life.

>> When did you discover she wasn’t? >> Hm. I don’t know that there was like one specific moment really. It was a lot of starting to piece things together as time went on. Because for a very long time, I truly believed she had no idea what was going on. Um and I almost felt bad. Like, I felt like he was doing something behind her back that I wanted to tell her what was happening, but I felt, how can I explain that her partner, as she called him, in my eyes, you know, her basically uh um a marriage without the paperwork, you

know, and um I I think that it was a series of me a series of aha moments. Really is what and then there was just a moment where I realized that oh no, she was a part of this, you know. Yeah. >> Did she ever assault you? >> No. She did not. Um and I and I it’s weird to say this, but I wonder why sometimes. Um because I know that that has allegedly happened with other victims.

Um I don’t know if it was because I was a little bit older than some of the other girls and maybe she thought maybe she felt more powerful with with the underage victims. Um There were a few moments over the course of the years spent with them um where I would be massaging her and I would feel a little uncomfortable where I I didn’t know whether or not she would try to you know, cuz there was sometimes little comments made where I couldn’t tell if it was just me getting in my head or if it was actually comments where she

was trying to cast a net, you know. Um so I I mean, I guess I’ll really never know, but yeah, I would say that nothing ever happened, but there were some I would say uncomfortable moments. >> The release of the Epstein files has led to some action in New Mexico. It’s it’s spurred criminal probes in that state.

How much do you welcome their investigations? >> Well, I’d like to see how it unravels because that is also an area in which they had so much information years ago. I I was interviewed by the Attorney General of New Mexico back in 2019. Um and she had a lot of information then. And suddenly, after his death, that investigation was completely shut down.

And they sold that property, they sold Zorro Ranch without any formal investigation or you know, dig up of the grounds. So, yeah, I mean, I I I’m happy that they’re looking more into it, but I am wary to see where it actually goes. >> What we’ve been told is that you’re absolutely right, that there was, in early 2019, an investigation.

But that the New Mexico authorities were asked to stand down by the federal agencies. That they had a parallel investigation going on, and the belief was that the federal authorities would have a better chance at prosecution. You know, to to learn that it was handed over to the federal agencies and then just stopped.

What was that like for you? >> Well, when it first happened, I I wasn’t really aware of it, because there was so much going on at that time with, you know, the um testimonials that we gave and you know, and and all the things, and then he died, and all of it. Um that it wasn’t until a couple of years later after the dust had kind of settled, so to speak, where I was like, “Wait a second, you know, what ever happened to that investigation? Where did that ever go?” Um and when I had heard at that point that it had been shut down or

transferred to, you know, a higher authority. Um I I was I know, I’m disappointed, you know, and obviously confused, because I mean, obviously, there’s another cover-up there. And what is it? >> Certainly the New Mexico authorities today say they have the will and they hope the way to continue investigating Jeffrey Epstein and co-conspirators and and the lawmakers as to why it went nowhere back in 2019.

Do you have much faith in in their hopes? >> I really wish I could say yes. I would love to have faith and hope in anything at this point, but um no. I don’t. I mean whoever it is that is covering up whatever it is that they’re covering up has gone to great lengths to make sure it stays covered up. So, do I believe that they’re going to Maybe they’ll find some more answers.

Maybe they’ll uncover a few more things, put a little couple more pieces of the puzzle together, but as far as them actually unraveling the gravity at what probably was actually going on there, uh no, I don’t think there will ever be a full disclosure of of it all. >> So, that opportunity in your view has been lost.

>> Yes. >> The criminal investigations into the ranch and the Epstein empire there, is that that the there’s allegations that two young women died and were buried there. Um Are you aware of those allegations or are you aware aware of whether or not that might have happened? >> So, I have heard a little bit of of that.

Yeah, I I’ve I’ve I’ve heard a little bit of some quiet chatter happening amongst people of things. Um that being one of them. Um also >> [snorts] >> girls waking up. um in sort of like a dark room with like a female doctor standing over them feeling like maybe there is some kind of procedure that had happened that they weren’t aware of. Um there’s also and I believe this is in the files.

I mean, I’m not 100% on this, but um I’m pretty sure there’s something in there about a baby actually being born. Um and then just just disappearing like Ghislaine taking it. Um and again, this is not me saying that. It’s just you know, what I’ve overheard. Um I personally never witnessed anything like that, but um again, like with me now piecing things together that I overheard and saw during that time and piecing it now together with some of the things that are coming out and some of the things that some of the other

survivors are talking about. Um it’s just interesting because I do remember overhearing conversations about trying to create the perfect baby, the perfect baby, the perfect gene pool. At the time when I’m overhearing these conversations, I really didn’t think it was serious. I mean, who would think that’s a serious conversation that somebody’s actually having to actually you know, orchestrate, but um now I see that you know, they they were actually serious.

Um and I know that there was sort of a hunt, if you will, for the perfect gene pool. >> So, who was having those conversations? >> Jeffrey. Jeffrey had a lot of those conversations. Ghislaine was often involved. Which is why in my head, this is how I rationalized it was that they wanted a child that and maybe she could not conceive.

So, that they were trying to figure out a way to have a child together. And that in my own naive head at that time, that’s what I thought was happening. But now, you know, we all know that it’s not what it was. >> Did you ever feel like you were being looked at in that way? That that you could contribute to the the perfect gene pool? >> Um I don’t think so.

Just from the facts that I’ve gathered, I think and again, this here this is maybe just my my theory from what I have what I know coupled with what I’ve learned. Um I It seemed like Jeffrey had categories for girls. Some were in the category in which he wanted to continue to just abuse them for absolutely no purpose other than just to destroy their lives.

There’s a category of girls who he also did that to, but then also sent to school to get an education. And then another group of girls who went further as to once those educations were received, then married them off to very successful men. And those are the women that are not talking at all because those women are also victims, but they got married to wealthy men and now they don’t want to come forward.

And then there were also women who were I would say in the model category. And I think maybe that’s probably where the gene pool idea or experiment or whatever it was that was going on was probably coming out of that group. >> Which group were you in? >> The one that got educated. >> [laughter] >> So, I mean, that’s that’s again my theory because he he sent me to school.

He he gave me a pick of any school I wanted to attend in in the world, literally. Like he said, “Pick a school and I’ll get you in there.” And at that time I was still very focused on an acting career. So, I didn’t think I needed to pursue per- pursue more education. So I wanted to do something that was more of a life skill.

So I went to culinary school. >> Such a complicated setup that he had there. Such a manipulative situation. >> I mean the the energy it must have taken to just orchestrate all of this all the time. I mean I just can’t imagine to have a desire to do such evil things so badly. Like what it what it what is inside somebody that’s so twisted and so dark that they would spend their lives having a fully working vessel of abuse.

>> So you were present when these discussions about eugenics and a baby farm and and so forth were being had. Were you privy to any action actually being taken to make that happen? >> No. Mhm. Just just talk. And and I stopped communicating with them all together in 2000 and 5 I believe.

And a lot of these a lot of where this [snorts] went kind of started to really develop more after the fact. So I think that it got a little bit more intense once I wasn’t involved. So I don’t know what went on after. I think maybe I could have just been around during the conversation parts of it, perhaps. I’m not really sure. But um I mean it’s it’s definitely very dark and twisted and very hard to wrap your brain around that they could even be talking about doing something like that.

>> Do you think if the authorities had raided the place in 2019 when the initial investigation in New Mexico was underway that there would have been evidence together? >> Yes, I do. >> And do you think there’s any chance that there’s any evidence together today? >> Maybe. [snorts] I mean I’m sure that if there is someone or someone’s buried on that property that I’m sure they didn’t un undig them.

So, I’m sure that if there are bodies they will find them if they, you know, move forward with that. But, um I think that, you know, you’re trying to restart an investigation like 9 years later. Um yeah, of course, they’re not going to find everything at this point. >> In your view, it’s not far-fetched to imagine that there are bodies buried there.

>> I would say until this past year, I would have said that yes, I would I think that’s far-fetched. But, what I have learned in the past year now I believe that there is a chance that there are some there, yes. >> And what have you learned and where have you learned that? >> Um just hearing other survivors speak, you know, we we have conversations when we see each other for various, you know, press situations or interviews and whatnot.

So, there’ll be chit-chat happening and you know, you’ll hear stuff. Um so, yeah, I’ve definitely heard some more elevated levels of creepiness than what I experienced there, for sure. Yeah. Um I I I heard, um you know, like the what what I was telling you earlier about how girls waking up with like a doctor standing over them in some weird dark room feeling very foggy.

>> When I asked you earlier was there evidence to capture in 2019, uh what would that evidence have been? >> I don’t know that I can answer that. I just know that there probably was a lot more video footage for sure. You know, he recorded everything I found out, which I also didn’t know until this all um became public, but um I’m sure that there’s also a ton of blackmail videos that Where are those? Who has those? Did they get destroyed? Did someone have them? But I think we all know they’re there.

Yeah, I mean I don’t know that I can specifically say, you know, they they would find this, this, or that, but um I think there’s definitely, I’m sure there would have been a lot of more clues to things had they jumped on it a little sooner. >> You had entered a world where the manipulation was paramount.

You were being offered and supplied uh with ways to achieve your dreams. You You’re taken down one path and you’re abused on the other hand. How How did you escape that world? >> Uh you know, I definitely was too afraid to escape on my own. Um I I thought I would literally be the only one going against him if I did that, because everybody I met had nothing but good things to say about him.

I met women who had been sent to medical school, women who had been sent to law school. All these women praised him. So, in my head, I’m thinking this man’s abusing me, but I must be the problem, because all these women and all these men, they all love him, and he’s on the cover of New York magazine, and you know, all the things that you think are supposed to you know, we’re supposed to be gratifying good people, and that’s not really what you know, our humanity has turned into.

>> So, how did you escape then? If not on your own. >> So, it took my sister who had also been sent away to study, which she did but also was abused on the side with that, which when she came home and I found out that that had been happening, that was the first big clue that I wasn’t the only one, obviously. Um and I was just I Anger is not even the right word for it.

I was I I I I I don’t remember if I was the one to call him or if he called me, um but we got on the phone and it was right right around my culinary school graduation, actually, and he was um offering me, you know, shares and stocks and hotels and jobs at a ritzy hotel kitchen to work my way up and become, you know, all all these dream jobs that he was trying to lay on my lap for me and I said to him in that conversation, like, I don’t want anything more from you.

I I know what’s been happening with my sister and I don’t want anything more to do with you guys anymore. Um and he said to me Shantae, life is about reality. It’s not about dreams. And if you think you’ll ever get anywhere in this life without me, you are very wrong. And he hung up on me. And um that was the last we spoke or had any communication.

>> [sighs and gasps] >> Sorry. >> You okay? >> [snorts] >> Yeah. >> Why does that aspect of it upset you? >> Because at that time I thought he is so wrong. He has no idea. >> [snorts] >> And I was still so sure of myself that I was going to make my dreams come true. Um and then you fast forward to you know 20 something years later and in a lot of ways my life is really kind of fallen apart.

Um I mean I’m I have a lot to be grateful for. I really truly do. I have a wonderful daughter >> [snorts] >> and a beautiful home and you know I’m rescuing dogs and I wrote a book and I own a health spa and you know all these wonderful beautiful things. But none of it is how I imagined it or wanted it and I’m doing it all by myself because I have lost my entire family.

I have lost [snorts] my daughter’s father who wants nothing to do with even my daughter because of this. So I [snorts] think back to that [clears throat] conversation and it just just makes me angry all over again because in a way he was right. He destroyed my [ __ ] life. And I didn’t see it then and I see it now.

>> [sighs and gasps] >> And I’m sick all the time, you know, so there’s that. So [laughter] it’s like Yeah. It’s a lot. It’s a lot. >> [crying] [sighs and gasps] >> It’s the daughter daughter’s father thing that really kills my heart because all the time I have my 5-year-old daughter asking me why God didn’t give her a daddy.

And eventually I’m going to have to tell her it’s because a really [snorts] bad man ruined your mommy’s life and your daddy didn’t want anything to do with her after that. >> [snorts] >> Shontae, can you see a day when there can be any justice for what you’ve gone through? Is Is it that Is that even a possibility? >> Um you know, that question comes up a lot and um >> [snorts] >> I feel like sometimes it’s hard to answer because it changes so much, you know, with the course of how this just has so many branches and so many

different things that are being unraveled with this case. Um and I I don’t think I can expect justice out of our government >> [snorts] >> or out of any of the people who are involved really ever paying any sort of price for this, at least not the price that we’ve all paid, for sure. Um so I think and I I wrestle with that question a lot because I I I get asked that a lot, like what does justice look like for me at this point.

And I think because I have no other way to get it, for me justice is publishing the book that I wrote so that my whole story can be out there and I don’t have to have everyone in the world judging me for hearing 20 minutes of a story that went on for years if not decades of the aftermath. >> [snorts] >> So, I am really really desperate to publish this book and what I’m finding is that um a lot of people are afraid to get attached to it.

Um and so I am fearful that I’m never going to get my full story out there. And for me that hurts my heart because I think that’s the most important aspect of this for me. And to bring it full circle my I my plan once I publish this book is to donate the proceeds to open a safe haven for stray dogs that otherwise wouldn’t make it.

You know, there’s dogs dying every single day because they have no place to go. >> [snorts] >> And they don’t have a voice much like I felt for a very long time. And so for me to be able to >> [snorts] >> publish this book and take those funds and open a safe haven for these dogs that are also suffering I feel like that will help bring justice for me.

I think it will help me heal a lot and I really need that. Um You know, because this is a situation where it’s a trauma that just doesn’t go away. You’re reliving it almost every day because it’s in the news every day. It’s on social media every day. It’s on late night talk shows every day. Um so there’s no getting away from it.

So, you’re constantly reliving it. And you’re constantly being reminded of all the ways it’s affected you. >> [snorts] >> So, I don’t know if that answers that, but yeah. >> It’s interesting that you say that people don’t want to be connected with you because of your association with Jeffrey Epstein. That really surprises me given the universal understanding now of of what went on.

>> It’s surprising for me as well. And I And I will say I’ve had a lot of support. I’ve I’ve With that, I’ve also had a lot of support and a lot of amazing people who have really been in my corner and if even, you know, people I don’t know leaving beautiful messages of support. Um I think for me, for the people in my life that have left, um be- because there’s no other I’ve had no answers.

All I’ve been left to do is just assume as these people have left my life one by one. >> Do you believe the power of Jeffrey Epstein reaches from beyond the grave? >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely it does. Um even what he did with his trust, I mean, that was just even a huge slap in the face for us all to have to fight as hard as we did to try to you know, have any kind of legal compensation for any of this.

That he made it very difficult for us to have any kind of um you know, financial gain from any of it. Um and I the mark he’s left on so many women, you know, girls, but now women, is that is something I mean, like he’s made his mark, he’s destroyed lives, he’s created the biggest scandal in American history. Um and he’s still in some ways controlling and manipulating the situation from there because he still has his people who, you know, fight for him, who fight the legal battles, who um try to make light of what happened.

>> Understanding Jeffrey Epstein is is an almost impossible task, I would suggest. Here is somebody who was sexually involved with Ghislaine Maxwell. He’s He’s forcing himself upon you. I think you were 22 at the time when you first met him. He was a pedophile. He had sex with with 13-year-olds.

How do you explain that, man? How do you explain his sickness? >> That’s exactly what I I would say is that he was a very sick man. Um I think that when you add a lot of money or a lot of notoriety or both to someone who’s already not okay in their head, that it creates a sort of desire for more. Desire for extreme, desire for something that’s going to make your adrenaline go because when you’re when you’re in a situation or in a position where you can have everything and anything you want in life, there’s something that happens, I think, in people where it’s it’s not enough.

They need to create something that feeds whatever it is, that darkness in them. And for Jeffrey, that was being a sexual predator. >> Did it surprise you that that darkness was in so many others? >> Yes. It still surprises me every single day. >> Do you believe that any of those people will finally be convicted, brought to justice? >> No.