I’m just going to talk about every side. I’m I want to do all of it. Same. I got all this to do. I love this space, though. Thanks, man. It’s kind of perfect, so. It’s great. Everyone good? Mike good? Cool. Thank you. We were brutal the whole year we were making this about like drilling deeper. And what was really different was that we kind of went against our comfort zone.
I remember there was one night it was like raining or something and Finneas and I had like fight. big fight. Finneas was like, “I don’t like doing this anymore. I don’t want to write music right now.” I remember like we just had this argument of me being like, “Just say how you feel and let’s write a song about whatever you’re scared about.
” And I think that this was like the first day really that I was able to be honest. Which is crazy. We’ve been listening to Billie Eilish’s search for honesty since day one as a young superstar landing on the world stage in the biggest possible way. And ever since then, we’ve all been awarding and rewarding them because their music and the art they make is so honest and so creative and brilliant.
But that doesn’t mean there isn’t road to run. And the fact that we have a brand new Billie Eilish album and both Finneas and Billie in Finneas’s studio for our longest, most comprehensive conversation yet means there’s so much more to say in the music and right now. I feel like we traveled all over the world at various points, which I’ve loved.
And long may that continue, by the way. Let’s go somewhere nice. Uh but just to come home I’ve kind of like low-key not high-key been dying to come into this space and hang out with you in this in this room or room like this. It was really different last time. Probably not that much bigger, though, cuz this this isn’t huge. No. Super small. Yeah.
Do you need that? I don’t think we need it, but I mean I like efficiency. This is also like this is the basement of my house. It’s a room I had. Um and yeah, you know, we just filled it with tools. The room we’re in right now basically existed when we made Billie’s second album. We finished her second album. Almost immediately a pipe burst above this room and fully flooded the studio.
Like completely completely destroyed everything. equipment and all. Had to be fully The equipment almost all survived miraculously. But the room was destroyed and had to be like aired out and hot fans on it for days so mold didn’t grow. Crazy. And it had to be completely rebuilt and um we rebuilt it pretty similarly, which was a good sort of indicator of that it was effective for us.
But I think on this album cycle, the big change was there’s a couch off camera right there and Billie spent the last album sitting on the couch recording vocals and Billie spent this album sitting like at here. with this microphone and we just were like Oh, you sit by side. pilots in a airplane. It’s like complete co-piloting.
side by side and even a lot of times when I was working on vocals and stuff, Finneas was there and I was here. We just totally switched spots, which is really sweet. I did listen to the first album again the other day and the opening, which seemed charming back then, is like now one of the greatest album openings of all time.
Cuz it’s the most it’s the most honest teenage representation of a record ever. And I thought, oh, maybe I’ll talk to them about that through this lens just once and just say, “Okay, if you could like go back in time and walk in the room, like listen through the door and be like, “Oh my god, there’s a young Finneas and young Billie making a record and around trying to figure it out.
” And you kick the door in, what would you say to them based on what you know now? I don’t even know. I mean, do you have any idea what you would even say to us both? It would be interesting to feel the energy of two people who are like very unaware of what’s to come. the thing that they’re doing being meaningful to other people.
Um I certainly wouldn’t want to mess it up. I wouldn’t want to go and get in their heads. up against the door and then walk away. I would want to maybe peek in, but I think that Keep it vicarious. Yeah. Anything that I could say of like you know don’t be so stressed out or whatever. Like I don’t know.
Yeah, you know, you can tell you can probably the closest you could get is probably tell quietly whisper to each other, “Hold on tight.” You know? But you can’t try to tell someone to avoid what’s going to happen regardless because it’s all it all adds up to this moment and it all adds up to Do we talk about the thing? The the thing? The thing.
Do we talk about it? The game. Zane knows the game. Did Have we played Does Do the cameras know yet? Okay. Finneas and I created a game. And it has You know the game. Yeah. But share the game. It’s a good game. It’s a great So an amazing game. Um this this was created about a year ago. No. No, it was like the end of last year. Oh, you’re right.
It was like the fall of last year. Yes. So this is Since then, this is a game we’ve shared with every everyone we know. And in like every artist and everyone in the music industry. haunt them. Just It’s just good to be aware of. So it’s a game called fear or fart. Right. Okay. And basically How did it How did it arise? was was give them the full detail, but basically we we’re sitting at this computer and we were The thing is like when we would go when we would get here to like work, it wasn’t like, you know, walking in and like, “All right,
you know, let’s get to work.” It was like we hang out. We’re we’re we’re buds. Like we’re siblings. We like to hang out and We don’t live together anymore, so now we got to catch up. I know, we have to catch up. We have to talk, whatever. So we’ll do whatever we need to do before we start making music and sometimes it’s like hang out upstairs, eat, play, whatever.
And sometimes it’s like YouTube, whatever it is. And we were in here and we were like looking at Happier Than Ever. different albums and stuff. Yeah. And I think that we started playing like some music and I remember Finneas going like “Oh, this is This guy like the smell of his own farts.” And I was like “Oh, it’s so interesting.
Like yeah, for sure he does.” Like he he really was loving loving how it was smelling. And then we were going through all these albums that we know and kind of labeling them as like, “Oh, did this person like their smell their own farts in there in the middle of making this?” And then we got to some people and I was like, “What about them?” And Finneas goes, “No, no, no, that’s fear.
” And so then we decided to we not even decided, we realized that every single thing in the universe can be put in one or the other category. And the good The fun is to be really clear is fear or fart. or fart. Here’s the caveat. Both could be good or not. or terrible. Yes. Has nothing to do with Because like there’s some great There’s been some great farts.
You can Yeah, 100% there You can make a great album and know that it’s great You can make it and be like, “I’m so awesome.” And it can be good. And also sometimes it can get in the way and it can, you know, promote some like laziness or whatever. Fear can super get in your own way and prevent you from taking risks.
So it was like when we say it, it’s like we really mean no offense of like It’s more of just like, you know, fear is like, you know, second-guessing yourself and not feeling like you’re totally you totally know what you’re doing or you feel like it might not be It’s just second-guessing, you know? And I And then fart is the kind of like, “No, no, no.
” All right, all right, all right. When we all fall asleep fear 100% fear. Yeah. Big fear. Yeah. It’s funny cuz I I definitely smell some fart on that album. No, that’s just farty teenagers. That’s just teenagers. We just thought we were We just thought we were funny. We thought we were funny. Wait, bad guy is not real.
We thought we were funny. I know it’s not real, but it’s definitely walks like it’s real. but it is But it’s made out Okay, good. Now that’s good. That’s a new That’s a new subcategory. because we determined that Happier Than Ever is the is the fart album of ours. It is a fart album. It has fear on that record. And again, we There are things we’re super proud of on Happier Than Ever, but I know from thinking back and thinking about the year we made that album that it was two people who had just been told the nicest things imaginable and we sat
around making these songs. And I know from remembering it that we sat around being like, “We are so good.” And like and there are things from a production standpoint, there are songs where like we’d work on something for 1 day and I’d be like Smashed it. Done. And I think that that’s like again, it’s like I would tell people not to overthink stuff, but I don’t think that’s not overthinking it and I think it was a kind of a Smelling your own farts. Yeah.
Yeah, just sort of feeling really full of yourself or cocky. Which I think was It can be fine. Again, it’s totally fine. It’s just that I think for that one we didn’t We just didn’t put that much into it. Didn’t push ourselves in a way. That’s why there’s like 16 so many songs. That many songs. Well, that’s kind of way the fear comes in.
So I think fear cuz it shows itself on that album in hindsight. Cuz I listen to this album now and I think about the person the people who are making Happier and I’m like, I don’t know. on to something cuz it’s true that that as much as Happier Than Ever was coming from this place of like “We’re so good.
We can you know, this album is so good. We are so good.” Yeah. It was also, at least for me, like um not knowing at all who I was or who I was supposed to be. And what’s interesting is that Hit Me Hard and Soft is almost the reverse of that where we were making it and it was like you know, we were kind of like this the whole time like, I don’t know if we’re making anything good.
Like this might be terrible. Right. And then now when I think about it I’m like, yeah, but I’m comfortable in who I am now and I feel like I know who I am now. I think that this album is like the biggest uh example of or not example, but I think this is like the most me thing that I’ve ever made and I think that it’s so purely me and not any sort of character really.
Which was hard to do. We were brutal the whole year we were making this about like drilling deeper into the essence of like who are you as a person? Cuz otherwise why even guessing it? Cuz otherwise why do it, right? At the end of the Why do it? What’s the most simple reason to show up again, to make another album? 100%.
I know. I think what was cool also about the making of this one was that we started working on it before we were like told to and that was like that was like a conscious Phineas thing. Like he was like, hey, we should like make some music before anybody is like, hey, you know, you should probably get to it, you know? And I think that that made it so that we could be creative and be have not I don’t have not have like this like pressure and like kind of people talking in our ears and our heads and I think that um
that was really nice. It’s a really It’s a really and I don’t know if you meant it this way, but it’s a really shrewd kind of psychological twist on how you approach your music cuz it kind of takes you back Yeah. to before. Yeah. Without having to talk about it. Without having to go, man, wouldn’t it be great if we could just go back to when it was so easy.
The amount of times I’ve spoken to artists and they’re like, man, sometimes I just wish I could go back to when it was just a simpler time. And as soon as you say that you can’t. But if you unlock it in a way by saying, hey, we can just stop. Yep. We just do it. We just do it. What we’ve always done is we do a song and basically finish it and move on and do another song and basically finish it and do that over and over.
And then, you know, by the time an album is done there’s songs that are like over a year old and then songs that are like a month old and you’re like, well the listener is going to think this is all one, you know, this all came out in the same was created at the same time, but really it’s like kind of doing this and what was really different this time around, which was extremely frustrating, but very rewarding was that we really did not do that.
We we kind of went against our comfort zone and like um what we did was we would and this was like Phineas’ idea, which I which I really am grateful that he came up with that because what we would do is we would be in here and we would come up with some idea and as soon as it would be like he’d be like, all right, let’s do something else.
Let’s put this away and let’s like work on something else. And so you’d be like creating, creating hit a little lull and as soon as that and that would happen he’s like, all right, this one or let’s Give some room to be excited about it still. I know, but then it made it so that all we didn’t have a full song to listen to for months. That’s really tricky.
That’s a tricky decision to make. Yes. Because you have to make sure that the that where at the point where you come to come back together in particular Billie that she’s going to be as excited about it in that moment as she was a month ago or two months ago. And not you’re risking that, man.
What if she comes back and she’s like oh god, I don’t know. That vocal doesn’t feel right to me anymore or I’ve lost the feeling of this I think you’re totally right and part of that maybe in a perverse way was like, let’s be that cutthroat. If she is not interested in this in 3 weeks Wow. then It was almost yeah, it’s like reverse.
And there were a couple there were a couple you, bro, cuz that is like that is almost in a couple instances there were things where we’d like work on it and be very amped on the day and come back to it and go like For for the song Blue so there’s a whole backstory on that song. Yeah. Which a lot of people know. No, this going reverse, I love that.
And where we start, let’s start at the end. Well, I just bring it up because we we really wanted to rewrite everything but the chorus and we didn’t really want to have like redo the whole song. We kind of just wanted to like have the hook and like some sort of verse, but we made that song when I was 14 and Ocean Eyes had just come out.
Phineas was like 18. And anyway, the lyrics have just kind of aged whatever. We just wanted to rewrite them for lots of reasons. And there was one day that we sat here and we rewrote those lyrics for like 6 hours straight. So we wrote wrote several verses. And we wrote many verses and many versions of each verse and it was so tedious and hard and we did not take a break and we were like, no, no, no, we need to rewrite it like we’ll get there.
And we eventually finished it and I was driving home and you and I were like, I’m so glad we did that. And when I was driving home and I listened to it I was like, these are like some of the worst lyrics ever. And that’s a kind of example of not taking time with it Yeah. and being like, no, no, no, just just just you know.
And sometimes that can be great, but sometimes it’s very clear that it’s like, oh I need a second. interesting that that that song that the first half of that song is like um it’s like a it’s like an end credits. It’s like it’s like all these little moments, these phrases, you know, open up the door and like That’s what that verse was.
I don’t know how to explain that. So the verse that we ended up writing um references every single song on the album. So even if you can’t if it’s not like super obvious, it’s still a reference. This is before you end the album with one of biggest downers of one of the best albums ever created. It’s such a downer end. Such a downer.
Well, I can’t believe you said it. I perfect. Am I wrong? It’s just it’s just so funny to think about it that way. I want to explain Blue really quick for those that don’t know. Basically the first kind of quarter of that song is a song that Phineas and I made uh when I was 14 and he was 18 called True Blue. And for like the first concerts we ever did like remember when we did like played it at it’s a school night.
We did it school night and like tenants of the trees or some nonsense. Like played it at different little Yeah. clubs before I had really anything out. I had like maybe Ocean Eyes out, maybe not even anything else. Yeah. But we kind of just put it away and never There’s a bunch of references to it in the doc on the album where like maybe we just put True Blue on the album.
We were going to put it out, but we never did cuz it just didn’t it kind of aged out of what we wanted to be making. And years and years went by and We stopped talking about it completely. And then we were working on the second album. Well, we were working on the second album and then separately pause that part and the second album we were working on all the songs that are in that one plus a song called Born Blue, which is like a completely different thing than True Blue.
It wasn’t even in the thought of it. And that was a song that was like written about a very specific thing thing that we want whatever, but um that was going to be on Happier Than Ever and we kind of just like couldn’t really crack it and it didn’t really Was a time thing. It was a crunch time thing where we were we picked 16 songs and that’s not that’s not had things we loved about Born Blue.
But there was only like a verse. Like we barely made that song. You don’t have time to finish it at this point. Yes, let’s go. We’ve got the 16 albums done. So we did the same thing. We took it and we went like, pink, bye. And never thought of it again. And then in 2022 I remember like doing my laundry or something alone and I don’t know, I was like on TikTok or something and suddenly True Blue has been just like leaked.
Can I just ask you how you reacted in that moment in the laundry? If you could take us to that exact moment when you see it. I was like, well, this is like I don’t like the way that you know, it’s like I don’t know. It’s hard to explain. Like it’s an unfinished thing that I never wanted to come out. Yeah. Whatever. I’m not complaining.
Whatever cuz it was kind of cool after a second. I was like I had my initial like, god, they stole my again. And then I was like whatever. It’s kind of cool. Whatever. And then But you started to appreciate it. This is the other thing. And I started to appreciate it and then I was like, True Blue, True Blue.
I haven’t listened to that in so long. So I go on YouTube and I’m like, Billie Eilish True Blue and I find all the rips of it. I just couldn’t stop listening to this song. I didn’t even have a version. I didn’t even have the original version and I I don’t know. I just was like, dude, I I remember hitting Phineas up and I was like, this song is actually like really got something and I I see it now.
Like I didn’t see it for many years and now I see it. And so we when we were working we kind of came in here and we were um we just tried to rework it and it took a second. The verses never felt right again. felt right and we kind of just never we couldn’t really crack it and then we were just doing it one day and then Phineas started changing the chords and it turned I started just singing Born Blue.
And then we kind of had this like realization like ooh, you know what would be cool? We took both of these old songs Resurrected them. completely different parts of our lives and resurrected them and made them into one song called Blue. And rewrote the verse and then wrote the rest of Blue of Born Blue So Born Blue is the second half of that song where it’s slowed down and it gets That’s That’s the downer. That’s right.
That’s the downer. And then we tied both of those together and added the motif the string motif that had become And the string motif, if you haven’t noticed, is the the from the bridge of the greatest. Yeah. Which is also in Skinny, which starts the album. So, then it also ends the album. And let’s not forget that Blue starts where Bittersweet Bittersweet leaves off.
ends yeah Yeah, we ended Bittersweet with the melody of the beginning of True Blue and then it goes into it. It kind of became like This is your Sergeant Pepper, isn’t it? Yeah. For sure. I mean, I really like we had a lot of conversations going into this at that album How satisfied I mean, listen, here’s the deal.
The like your attention span is what it is. It’s it’s not I think people throw a lot of flak at kids and society and the modern, you know, style of consuming anything. I don’t think attention spans have gotten shorter. I think the things we’re consuming have changed a lot. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so to me if we’re if we’re going to make a 44-minute album and expect people to have the attention span that they had in the ’90s Yeah.
or the ’80s or the ’70s let’s make an album that is made with the same level of care and attention that was happening there. But it’s kind of true. Like if you think about like the way that we consume television shows, if it’s great, like if it’s truly great we’re going to watch it all the way through.
We all watch you know, the nobody complains about something amazing being too long. You know what I mean? Yeah. And What’s also great about this is it is it’s concise in terms of the the number of songs, but these songs stretch out and live with themselves and know themselves beautifully. In fact, one of the only concise moments is the first song.
Everything else, I mean, that’s a very concise message, right? You were saying. And there’s so much I love about that song. I said to someone here before, I don’t know if you’re making up with yourself or breaking up with us. I think it’s probably both. Wow. Wow. A beautiful way to put it, Zane. I think it’s probably both, you know, and I think and I think but I think it’s it’s it’s captured the bittersweetness of both.
It’s a bittersweet experience of getting to know yourself again. It’s a bittersweet experience of saying, “Hey, everything has a season.” I know. And it’s just oh my god, it’s so great. Um you know, but the old me is the real me and maybe it’s still me and I think she’s pretty. Must have been quite an impactful moment for you just realizing just seeing those words on paper or putting them on wherever Yeah.
That song was I mean that was like the first full song that we wrote for the album. Um and it was Do you remember that song was like born out of kind of us having a weird our lives were really different and I was kind of going through something and Finneas like it was just we were in like a very different place. Out of sync.
Really out of sync and we were working during that, but we couldn’t I mean, we were coming up with like pieces of stuff and of course, now when I look back at what we were coming up with it was Great. It was the chorus of Lunch and the bridge of Xanny, but at the time it didn’t There was nothing to tell us what was going that it was going to be great eventually.
And so we felt kind of like, “What are we doing?” Like I don’t know how we’re going to do this. And I remember there was one night it was like raining or something and Finneas and I had like a big fight about context and subject matter was the big fight. We’d been writing these fragments of stuff and I felt Finneas could not I felt and again like this is I I’ve been proven wrong over and over, but this was the jag I was on that night was like I was like subject-wise I’m not being led in to what you’re actually feeling. And I think that there
are real guards up. Often times in your life you’re going through the thing that you’re going to write about later. And that was for sure happening to Billie at that point in time where I’d be like, “What’s this about?” She’d be like, “Nothing.” And I remember like we just had this argument of me being like, “Just say how you feel and let’s let’s write a song about whatever you’re scared about feeling.
” Well, and also not to throw you under the bus, but Finneas was like, “I don’t like doing this anymore. I don’t want to write music right now.” You know, and this was really scary for me at the time because as you know, I used to be like, “Hate making music. Don’t want to make it. Don’t like making it. It’s frustrating.
It’s it’s irritating. I love having made it. I love performing it. I love, you know, when it’s good, but I really have always struggled with the process. And this was when You were enjoying the process then. of finally enjoying the process and Finneas was like “I would rather be doing anything else right now.
” And it was very interesting cuz I saw myself in that. So, I was like, “I have felt that way.” And now and you have always been the the thing that keeps the ship moving and now you feel that way and like what does that mean for us and what are we going to do? And I think Finneas also had this kind of totally understandable thing just repeating in his head of like, “I have nothing to say.
How could I say anything with the life that I live that anyone could could relate to that I wouldn’t sound like a huge poopoo douche. I think that and also when we’re talking about being out of sync, like my whole strength as a collaborator with any artist and it’s always been kind of innate with Billie because we’ve shared so much is I do have to understand that person to be able to feel like I’m providing something.
It’s a really valuable moment though for the two of you because on on the one hand you get to actually acknowledge something which you probably needed to hear from him, which is like, “I don’t have all the answers and I’m not here to protect the process like I’m struggling with this.” Which big for your growth, too.
It’s like, “Well, hang on. I got to ask myself how much I really want to do this and can I bring him back into this in a good way?” The other part of it as well is that you know, you are now in a situation where you get to control how much you unveil until you’re ready. Right? Cuz you’ve been so pressured to tell us your truth, Billie.
You’re successful now. Write another song, Billie. Make another album, Billie. Force-feed us your emotions, Billie. You know, and it’s like you’re like, “Hang on. I don’t know if I’m ready for what he’s telling you’re telling me to actually share that.” Yeah, it’s a crazy Well, and also I think that I think that it’s really hard to see what’s going on until it’s over in a lot of ways and I think for me, you know, he was like, “Just be honest with me.
Tell me what’s going on.” And I literally was like, “I don’t even know. I don’t even know how to describe. I don’t know what’s good or bad right now. Like I can’t tell.” And then it’s like when you look back on it you go, “Oh, that’s what was going on and that’s what I was feeling.” Um but I will say that his kind of um Finneas also like really made a big effort in the process to like let me kind of lead the way in a lot of ways and Finneas would and that was so terrifying at first because, you know, we’ve we’ve been making music for years and I kind
of I’ve been shy and not very quick with it and like I don’t I’ve never felt like confident as a songwriter and he’s so good that it’s like hard to compete with, honestly. And he would sit there and kind of be quiet and not say anything and not say anything or give any ideas and I’d be like Oh my god, like I don’t even know what I’m supposed to do right now and it pushed me to like actually do so much.
And so for this album this was like this was the I’ve this was the most I’ve ever written. contributed and contributed and I did some production stuff even and I did all my own vocals and The reason the reason behind that for me was that her ideas had become more and more concrete which she just had more They weren’t good before.
Well, she you know, like it’s the difference between somebody giving a really good suggestion and somebody giving you like a full plan, you know? Yeah. And I think it was also a place of like there were years if I go back to the first couple years of like co-writing with anyone like I wanted to be useful so bad.
I wanted Billie to come over and feel like I I had value. And I think often times and I’ve worked with other people like this and I always give them the same piece of advice of like if you steamroll if the best idea is going to take 10 minutes longer shut up and let it take 10 minutes. Do you know what I mean? Like don’t rattle off 30 bad ideas in 10 minutes.
I’m not saying that my ideas are all bad, but I just mean like I really love Billie’s ideas and I don’t care if she is maybe going to take a couple more minutes to think about them than my idea that is or isn’t good. So, I want to leave oxygen. Yeah. Um And so that happened, but I think it was a funny shift in our dynamic where where I’d be sitting there playing and Billie would be like, “You’re not even saying anything.” And I’d be like, “Wait.
” And then what would happen and it was so beautiful and Skinny is the best example of this is like you wait and you wait and you wait and then Billie says something that’s so great and then I know exactly how to help. I know exactly where the missing thing is because we’re so on the same page with Finneas is so good at that.
Like I’ll come up with all these ideas and and these lyrics and melodies that are tight and they’re great and there’s like this and this and this and this and then there’s like one thing that I need. I’m like, “I I really don’t know what this is.” And if Finneas would just be like “What if you said this?” And it’s like the best lyric of the whole song.
And actually that line that you just brought up was that moment. It was like articulate we’d been we I knew exactly what we were trying to both feeling and how she was feeling and it was just kind of a rhyme structure. also like that line is the kind of thing that is It’s a bar is what it is. It’s a It’s a That song is just bars.
Bar after bar after bar. But like I don’t know, that’s the kind of thing that there’s some things that are really hard to say about yourself. Yeah. I was really struggling with this weird just like I don’t know, everything was weird in my life and Finneas was like I was just talking about myself and talking about like who I used to be and the way I used to look and things and that and that and Finneas just was like the old me is still me and maybe the real me and I think she’s pretty, you know? And I was like oh
I do think she’s pretty. Here’s the thing about lunch, right? We’ve all read the “I didn’t exist in existence right now” and that and it’s a great opening line and it it grabs you and it’s just like boom, check it out. It’s a metaphor for me. It’s just It’s just not taking control, isn’t it about about your life? Right.
Right. Right. Right. Literal but also metaphorical. Yeah, there’s a lot There’s a lot of stuff going on in that one. Yeah, there’s a lot of stuff going on. Yeah, I mean I remember like one of the verses um was written after like a conversation I had with a friend and they were telling me about this like just complete animal magnetism they were feeling and I was like I just feel like “Ooh, I’m going to pretend to be them for a second and just write.
” I don’t know, there’s a lot of metaphors and a lot of stuff. There’s also some real power dynamic going on there. There’s an exercise of actual power going on there, which is really interesting to me cuz it’s like hey I’ve played the innocent and trying to figure it all out and I’ve and I’ve tried to make myself look older than I am on the last album and figure out how to Right? But on this record it’s like hang on, I’m going to buy you stuff.
And I’m going to buy the clothes and I’m going to leave them on the And by the way I could buy her so much stuff killed me. That was so such a like It’s a craving not a crush. But the “buy her so much stuff” was such a funny like It’s just such a like like actually a feeling, right? Like I could I could buy her so much stuff. I’m like oh my god.
Think about all the things I could buy. Yeah, and that line has very little to do with money and a lot to do with just like wanting to give somebody stuff. The line that is like “bad guy grew up and got money” Uh-huh. is like “I’ll put the clothes” Oh, yeah. That’s just control. Right. Right. I’ll run a shower for you.
Like clothes Yeah. Clothes on the counter for you. On the counter for you. And then if I’m allowed. Exactly. And then it’s like “Oh, but hang on, it’s all cool.” Like it’s such an It’s a fascinating song. Thanks. And it’s it’s one of those moments where I think it’s you at your playful best. Playing the character.
That’s why I brought up “bad guy”. It is the character. And everyone seems to be so obsessed with the legitimacy of the lyrics but it’s like hang on, you’re missing the point. This is all I know, that’s kind of This is the other This is the other you know, not to compare art or to besmirch stuff that we’re proud of but I think one of our big um goals on this record when we were looking back at everything we’d ever made was like I think if you can be funny, you can be so much more serious.
I think if you Wow. I think if you are always this serious, it starts to lose meaning and stop impacting you. vulnerability is like if you’re if you’re only ever being vulnerable If you’re not dynamic. You can’t, you know. Yeah, and I think that like one of the things that I’m so Yep. happy about in retrospect when I listen to “when we all fall asleep” is all this humor humor that we were trying to hit.
And then it’s like than ever” was one of the ones where we we were taking ourselves a little too seriously. So lot of fun. Again, this is the deal. It’s like there’s stuff I’m very grateful to on that album but we we were we had no interest in trying to tell jokes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is that thing that you know, people say about like when you start to embrace cringe, you’re so much happier.
You have so much more fun. But we talked a little bit about “happier than ever” in the last conversation. It didn’t make it in cuz we wanted to focus on the song but um I I think I said something to you on the lines of like that album was sacrificial in the most beautiful way. It gave its life for you to continue making records.
I mean I said it a couple months ago that “happier than ever” walked so that “hit me hard and soft” That’s right. You know, and that’s the world that you were in when we were all in when you were making that album. We were all We had no We made “happier than ever” we were like maybe we’re never going to play a show again.
That was like where we were at when making that album. The whole first album was like “I want Billie to run out on stage at Coachella and play “bad guy”. Like that was like the the things that we were thinking about, you know? And I think that “happier than ever” we actually made from a place of like I mean no one We haven’t seen a friend in months.
You know, and this album again was like an ex self-exploration. And also like not to not to sort of back catalog too much. I’m sure several years from now we’ll be looking at this album in a retrospective way and that’s just the way it is but I think that I’m glad that you’re pointing all that stuff out.
Like I think “lunch” to me is like yeah, if you can throw some jokes in there Totally. Cuz otherwise why would you write a song? Check it out. You’re You’re a kid and you write these songs. Some of them are really honest and vulnerable. You don’t know you’re on the record. For song title “skinny”, second song title “lunch” Funny.
I found that That was pretty funny. That was funny when we figured that out. Funny. Okay, that’s good. It’s a lol. You don’t know that you know, you’re going to be on the record and the whole world’s going to start listening to your songs through the context of who you actually are and then the characters and the real human being will blur into one weird perception of Yeah, you lose all this No idea.
And if you figure that out with all the with the world watching I wonder why anyone shows up at all. I really wanted the songs to not be like “Oh, I know who that’s about.” You know, I I think that that we live in such a world where like everyone knows everything. Everyone’s got beef. Everyone’s Right. It’s true. Everyone is aware of the beef that happened and aware of the people that don’t like each other and aware of this and that.
People put songs out especially in the pop world. And I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it necessarily but it’s just we live in a world of like you put a song Somebody puts a song out and it’s everyone’s like “So this is who this is about and this is the entire story of what happened.” And it’s like doesn’t even give the listener a chance to interpret it how they want to interpret it and how they naturally hear it. And that I find really frustrating.
I don’t want to hear a song that I’m like “Ooh my god.” Every single lyric I’m like “Oh my Oh my god. Like this is about that person that I know exactly I think you shouldn’t listen to “lunch” and think about who Billie wants to eat for lunch. You should think about who you want to eat for lunch.
That’s the whole deal. Like that’s But that’s the whole deal. metaphor, y’all. That’s not like But I just mean that it’s like I’m I don’t I don’t listen to like I don’t listen to a song about love and think about being in love. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. I don’t listen to “The Luckiest” by Ben Folds and think about his wife.
I think about who I’m in love with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s the deal. What you’ve done together as producers on this record is so exceptional. When the op comes in and I hear the op for the first time, it’s like damn, Finneas has got the op out. Why am I not surprised it’s the most beautiful sounding op I’ve ever heard in my entire life. It’s so perfect.
I know it’s going to drop off a cliff in any minute. I can’t wait for that moment. Right? And it’s so funny. It It just to me what it says one of the coolest moments of the whole album. When you were there? When we created that. Yeah. Can you describe that cuz I know how I felt when I heard it. even remember them It was multiple moments because there’s multiple parts and it kind of it turned into like many things but That song has no discernible structure, you know? Apart from the “open up the door” at the beginning and the end,
everything else is a freestyle. Yesterday I was plotting out the music video and I was like Okay, wait. There is Okay, wait. But then there’s this part. But then Okay, wait. But then so so much song. I mean it’s also 5 minutes long. I don’t remember if we had the “I don’t know you at all” thing yet but I remember I remember very well Finneas playing around with his production and I had the handheld mic and I was like improvising and I was like Here, grab that handheld just to just to show it off. Yeah, this is the And this
is the mic you record the whole album on? This is the mic we wrote basically the entire album on. And so basically what we did We’d never done this before either. Um I would sit here Here, I can pull up the sound if you’re interested. But this is how we wrote everything and I actually just Okay, so I filmed pretty much the entire making of the album on this camera and my phone.
I was just watching the footage back and it was so amazing to see and there’s this one many videos but there’s this one video where I’m sitting there like this holding this and Finneas is coming up with what is one of the coolest produced songs of ours in my opinion. And he’s just like making it up and he’s like You know, that one part.
And I literally go I’m just improvising and I watch my I had I don’t even I don’t have any memory of this and I just went like And that’s when you found me. I was waiting in the garden. When you told me you were serious, were you serious? It’s like just just came right out. I had no idea. And then I immediately was like Open up the door.
Can you open up the door? And Finneas was like I loved “open up the door” was was Open up the door. “Open up the door” was a huge win. That was a win. I have a video of the making of And it comes up a few times in the album for that reason. It’s It’s It’s a beautiful image because it’s actually such a pure request. It’s such a simple request.
I know. And it’s ambiguous and I love an ambiguous line. Yeah. In my head your childhood bedroom then you saw the world like on fast forward. Yeah. No no time to have fun, really. Right. Have this award. This throwing the award. And then and then it’s like when I heard that op I was like They’re going to actually have fun.
Like it sounded like this could be the beginning of you going out and going clubbing and having a good time and living some life and that’s what I got out of that song. A big part of I would say 40 Yeah, I I wanted to uh uh Yeah, so this is how we recorded the or this is how we recorded the vocals of this song, yeah.
All the vocals onto here were in the room with this with like the feedback from the speakers in the room. So, like I actually have actually have the If you If you separate everything, the vocal has to be isolated. them all. I have the isolated I have the isolated vocals from the song and it’s basically the song cuz the the speakers were just We used headphones.
We were just kind of We didn’t invent this, by the way. Like Tony Oh, not at all. But it was extremely useful. So, I And it’s a really, really, really useful writing uh tool. tool for for me, especially. Like it’s a lot easier for me to perform than it is to do doing both. And then you can also put like a bunch of bunch of delay.
I think this song also had a bunch of delay on it. A bunch of Uh Birds of a Feather, which was also a lot of it written on a handheld, even though we ultimately re-recorded those vocals. written on a handheld. Um but that But you put some You put some delay on it. Video video video video video. I mean, I was going out a lot on the you know, over the course of making this album and it was super I’m such a dork that I never you know, been invited anything cool.
And I was really enjoying uh it the music I loved through a sort of a lens of dancing to it, you know? I’ve never made music that I’m then going to go dance to. I love that. The main thing we would say every time we would make anything is like, can this is this danceable? And mean before we ever heard from anything from you two? Like Ocean Eyes.
Literally dance classes. Like literally like, how is this going to be to Can we dance in a dance class? Is it Are the dancers going to like this? Like that’s all I used to think about. And then for many years it kind of became more things than that and whatever. And I kind of forgot that. And I feel like during this I was like we need to go back to that.
It opens up the door to a whole world and it open and it just it it I feel like, hey, I don’t have to be afraid anymore. That art just signals a whole new wide open space. We’re also merciless with time where you know, if a song that’s 3 and 1/2 minutes long is more concise and better at 2 minutes 50 seconds, like let’s get it there.
yeah. But I think that the fun part about the dance thing and again, like I don’t want to act like I’m reinventing the wheel here, but it was an appreciation for these long pieces because you’re dancing to them. You know, it being able to stretch out and collaborate in different ways and not just through the lens of the words and the performance, but also to work together on how you can make the instrumentation just breathe and live.
It’s been such a beautiful part of this record, but but you know, then you hit us with Birds of a Feather. Okay, Birds of a Feather is like hands down the best pop song you’ve ever made in my opinion. And it is such a joy to listen to. It makes me happy and cry at the same time. It reminds me so much of like Wham! and George Mi- Just it’s like the best Wham! song ever made.
That they never made. Much love to George Michael. Yeah, but you know what I mean? That moment when And also we hear you sing, you reach a place in that vocal where you go Oh, till the day that I die. And you go there. It’s like pop yearning. I haven’t heard you go I’ve never heard you sing like that. Well, and also that ending where I’m like uh till the day that I die.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you drift off into space. And I just kept go That that’s like the highest I’ve ever belted in my life. And I remember being in here and being alone. I was in here alone in the dark. Dark period of time. And I was just like I am going to get this right. And I was recording that like till the day that I die.
Till the light leaves my eyes. And then I was like, you know what? I’m going to I’m going to try something. Okay. Take it home. Till the day and I’m like, I die. I could just hold it or I could go, till the day I die. And then I was like dude, I’m going to have to keep going. And I literally was like die. And I just was like kept going.
And then I was like, I got this one. I’m going to just hit the higher one. And this is a girl that like I could not belt until I was literally 18. Like I couldn’t physically do it. And I can’t I’m like so proud of that. I remember coming home and being like, I came Yeah, I came downstairs. And this is also the fun thing about like like gradually over the last album I was teaching her a little bit of this, but I was like, she’s such a good ear and I’m just a like puppet when it comes to comping her vocal because she’s so
meticulous. And I can comp a vocal, no prob. I’ve been doing it forever, but like she got better and better at knowing like I like this take and I like this word from this take and like this word. And so I just like, well, let me teach you how to do this. It’s not that hard. And so I taught her how to record herself and how to comp herself.
I’d get a call to come downstairs where she’s like, something’s wrong. I’d come downstairs and fix it. But one of the reasons I did it is cuz I’ve always recorded alone. And there’s stuff that I am just not brave enough to do in front of somebody else. And it’s like I know I’m her brother, but it’s like Oh, I could never have done that with anyone in the room.
and also probably probably some other take in there you were like, I hate this even though you got the one take that you killed. I think that really shines on this album as like a person even without their collaborator in the room doing the bravest thing ever. And then That’s really good. Yeah, yeah. It’s so good.
So, in that moment before you write before you go up that final note, right? Which is high. Woo. High. Boy. Are you cuz you’ve held the the second to penultimate note for quite long time. Mhm. Are you in the moment saying to yourself, you just got to go for it? Uh yeah. Yeah, I was like, I’m I’m just going to try it.
I was like, I might blow it, but I’m going to just have to try it. And I did it. Okay. Oof. Wildflower. Wildflower. Whoa. Yeah, tell me what your thoughts are. Well, Wildflower is is I got I have thoughts and it and but I don’t want to try not to be too literal with them, but I First of all, it’s it’s one of the most brilliantly complete songs you ever made together.
The whole way that you sign off on start and sign off and and everything in between is is pretty flawless in terms of capturing a really complex feeling. Mhm. Um it it has one of the most devastatingly sad lines about loving it of all time, which is, I know that you love me, you don’t need to remind me. That cut me in pieces because the reminder you was the point. I know.
It’s the point. I I know you don’t need me to tell you, but I want to tell you because it’s it’s what makes you want to tell me. And that’s the connection. Mhm. To cut someone off and say, I already know, you don’t have to is like well, what the is left? My interpretation again, which I love everyone’s interpretation of lines like this.
To me it was that’s not going to change how I feel. I already Huh. I already know this. And I’m not waiting for you to say it. I know it implicitly and I still in the back of my mind it’s not going to change the way I feel. I feel something for someone else. Well, it’s more like like I’m not asking for reassurance. I am 100% confident that you love me.
I know this. That’s not the problem. The problem is this thing that I can’t shake. But it’s really interesting because it was kind of one sided. Like it was that’s why I need That’s why it was really important to write for me because I I actually came up with the um I see her in the back of my mind all the time. That with that melody.
I came up with that like as soon as I felt it. Like I Like this was like I wasn’t even writing much at the time and that that line I came up with. Remember that? You came I think you came in with I was like, dude, I have this line and I don’t But But of course I couldn’t really get what I needed cuz I wasn’t being super honest with myself and whatever.
But um what was so like important about the song is that it was a feeling that I was experiencing that I think I was alone in. And I think that the person that I that the song is kind of to and then the person I’m also talking about, I don’t know if they have they had been experiencing any of those feelings at all.
But I couldn’t stop thinking about it, you know? And it’s kind of like that whole song is kind of like a it’s like a girl code song. It’s like a breaking girl code thing and I think that that’s one of the most challenging places. Is that with the the line that I crossed the line? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I It was really interesting that line as well because accountability has been a through line in your music.
Holding people accountable as well as your own behavior. But that’s one of the first times I’ve ever heard you actually acknowledge a flaw. I know. Yeah, I did something, you know? I and I feel anxious about it deeply. And it’s not a song about cheating at all. There’s like no cheating is fine. mean there’s any physical activity or any in that regard, but it definitely internally nothing to do The thing is it’s about something that didn’t wasn’t even bad.
Like it was just something I couldn’t stop I couldn’t get out of my head, you know? I love I love that song. That is like Well, it’s in the middle. One of the best songs the middle. It’s in the middle and it was also like I don’t know. We wrote it. It kind of helped me realize It was one of the first feeling. we’d written.
It’s like really one of the first couple. But it really helped me realize like what was what I what I was feeling and what I was going through and being like, oh, maybe this is actually affecting me more than I thought. Yeah, cuz then you have the the the idea of I I see you in the back of my mind like a fever. You know, the funny thing is we never forget our fevers as kids.
At least I never really don’t. Daddy don’t forget your fevers. It’s like, wow, I remember when I had a fever when I was 3 years old, you know? It’s one of the earliest memories I had. And so it’s it’s a very visceral image. The idea of this thing you cannot put out. I that song for so many reasons and I think what’s what I love about it is that it’s such a like tortured over thinky song.
It’s like a song that’s just like, “Dude, I can’t stop thinking about it.” And it just kind of I feel like it it’s portrayed the more the song goes on and like they when I when I start to like sing the second chorus and like go up with it and then it turns into this kind of bigger moment with the drums and everything. Yeah.
And then it comes back down and then you have the ending chorus that’s the similar as the main one instead it says, “Do you see her in the back of your mind in my eyes?” Like Classic call me to turn around that. right right. We had to hit him with that. And then you think it’s over and then we got a little reprise and I was very very happy about that.
Yeah, it’s a little outro. Afterthought. But also that we that happened because I just wanted like a bridge to happen underneath the like Guitars? Did I cross the line? Cuz there’s not much going on there. And I we wrote that little bit and I was like, “That’s I think that’s so beautiful that it needs to have its own it needs to be heard on its own.
” Let’s talk about The Greatest. I just think that that’s a song that just reflects how far you’ve come and where you sit now and your ability to be able to push each other. That’s a really special one for us. I think that to to us The Greatest is kind of like the heart of the album and the just it it really completes the whole thing, I think.
And also when we made it that was like the turning point that kind of Everything went pretty well after that. Everything went very well after that. It just kind of woke us back. we wrote it when Billie had her like I think Billie went from living life to understanding it in that moment. Can you qualify what do you think Finneas means by that a little bit? I don’t know.
It’s what I was saying earlier. It’s like really hard to to see what’s going on until it’s over. It’s Well, until after. Yeah. Um and I think that this was like the first day really that I was able to be honest. And I was like scared to be honest before that. And also, you know, it’s really hard to feel hurt by someone who you so much and who is a some like like a person you’d like almost die for.
Like a person who you really have no ill will to. Like complete like I don’t know. It’s a it’s a tough thing. But when you realize you’re willing to go somewhere that someone else isn’t it’s so devastating. And everybody has been in some dynamic in their life or their relationship like that. But like when you realize that you’d you know sacrifice and wear yourself out and compromise all these things and you realize that you’re the person you’re in love with is not making those sacrifices and is not in that area. To me that’s what that song
is about. It’s like so kind of like you don’t even you don’t even want to know how lonely this is. Yeah, because that’s the that’s the true nature of the song. It’s such a journey. It It’s like when you’re at your best the two of you you’re able to take something really complex and human that takes people books to write and put it into four or five minutes of a song.
It’s what it’s what really sets you apart and I and I think that is the highest point you’ve been able to do that. Yeah, I mean that is really what that song is about it. And I think the ending of it that’s my favorite part of the song is that ending because because I think it’s infuriating. When you look at a person and you look at all these things that the person is so amazing at.
Somebody that’s like kinetic kinetic and really loving and really special and just the areas where they’re in their own way. That bridge is I think my favorite bridge we’ve made. And then those lyrics which is they’re they’re so simple and they’re some of my favorites in the world and also the way that I sang them and how close they are is it it’s so to me every time I listen to it it’s so it’s so gut wrenching.
So emotional. cathartic. Just I loved you and I still do. Just wanted passion from you. Oh my god. I just wanted back what you gave. Just wanted what I gave you. Just wanted what I gave. gave you. And then I waited and waited. I alluded to this a little bit and now we’re going to go there um L’Amour. Um L’Amour is brutal.
L’Amour is just brutal. It’s so it’s brutal in so many ways. In so many ways. Yeah. We got when we were writing that that’s a good example of like there’s kernels of life in there but we the song started to to exist in a way where we could see it. It had less to do with like you know, writing about this exact experience that happened and more to do with like Sure.
Sometimes you can see what a It’s like a song Storytelling. is like archaeology. You’re like, “I’m going to I’m going to brush away until you see the skull of the dinosaur.” I remember writing the chorus and us just being like meaner and meaner. Like it just got so mean. And then the verses were about kind of like how do we justify how up and mean that chorus is.
And then the bridge is so the bridge is so dismissive. The bridge of L’Amour is The bridge of just of the bridge of L’Amour is the opposite of the bridge of The Greatest. I know. Oh, so you found her. Go fall in love just like we were. I even If I had a love like I don’t even know if I was. It’s very out of the pocket of what we know you for and there’s a reason for that. Right.
And I love all the There’s reasons for that and I love it. And the one that I want to focus on right now which I love is um I love that it sounds like you’re actually doing your first ever guest spot on someone else’s song. You know what happened and I remember this happening. Billie had come in and was like on this like she’d like she was like juiced.
She came in from the from the gym. She was like, “I need something to something to lift to or whatever.” And we made this thing it was got to don’t scratch. And she started screaming in the mic and we threw autotune on and stuff. And we had this thing where like the melodies we liked and the vibe was so kind of outrageous.
And it was a little like uh yeah, we were so we were in a pool that was not we jumped in the neighbor’s pool. You know what I mean? Well, also we we we were just at that time we had just come up with a random lyrics that were like totally nonsensical and not about anything. And I remember we had this feeling once we started kind of cuz I love a a production tapestry for a record.
There are sound there are like drum sounds and synths that I I put across the whole album. And so things like Over Now which is what we ended up calling it. on the album.” I was like, “We’re not putting that out.” And I was like, “If we do I’ll reproduce it in a place where it’s like maybe it’s the same tempo but it feels more in the same wheelhouse of everything.
” And ultimately like I kept sitting with it and I remember saying to Billie one time I was like the bravest thing we can do is just put it out like this. Like just put it out there. put it like on the end of something that is completely different and just have it be a little secret at the end, you know. Not put it out as its own thing.
And it was like it’s a what? Minute and a half? And also It’s so short. It’s what’s funny is it’s it feels like it’s part of L’Amour but it’s completely not. It’s like about a completely different thing that we cuz we we made the original one in I think like November October October. Um and then we rewrote it in Like right before we finished.
It was like one of the last things. Like over a year later. It sort of stemmed from the album in in all ways it’s just about Billie. It’s not a narrative album about a fictional character something but we have always loved like songs within songs within songs. Like a thing where it’s like is this a song that the person singing this other song is listening to now? You know what I mean? Like and it kind of has that feeling.
You’ve kind of just listened to Billie sort of sing She’s so heartbroken in The Greatest and then she sings this song that’s like the anti the antibody of like, “You know what? you anyway.” And then she kind of found all these different Yes, but then she kind of goes she kind of goes to the club.
Yeah, it’s like it’s I’m ready to go out and ready to have a good time. I’ve still got you in the back of my mind but I’m going to dance my way through this And this is how it’s going to go. Has it changed your approach to to how you show up on other people’s songs? Um Cuz that’s rare and yet when I hear it on that I’m like, “Is this the start of of like There’s a lot of freedom in your life right now.
” I get a sense that you’re like, “Hey man, I’m not as afraid as I was and life is wide open for me.” We um we did a session with another artist. I did a session with another artist artist for the first time in six years. Holy when was this? A couple weeks ago. It was so fun. And it was really fun and I was really nervous cuz I was like Wow.
I I I haven’t worked with anyone but Finneas in six years. And I hated it back in the day. I really really hated it. I hated studios. I hated collaborating. I’ve never done a feature. Even when we do stuff like the labyrinth thing that’s like a person we love who we’re friendly with sort of sending us files across the internet and talking privately.
It’s really a pen pal situation. And he sends it and if we come up with nothing good then it goes away, right? Yeah, this was a this was to me like such a fun part of like being in the music business was like Billie was sitting and telling me why she loved this one artist. We were watching their music videos together and I know them.
And I was texting them and I was like, “We’re sitting here watching your stuff. It’s so good.” They were like “I’m in LA.” I was like “Do you want to do a day?” Did your stomach churn or you like, “Wow, we’re going Billie tried that?” Why are you doing that? What are you talking about? The stuff Yeah, Billie’s whole relationship with music has been so high stakes. Bro, I really empathize.
I make stuff for people so much, and the stakes are so low in terms of like we make something, we noodle around, we like it or we don’t, it never goes anywhere, whatever. Billie is like Billie is like sitting in front of a microphone, it’s the two of us in a room, and she has to think is that like I’m going to I’m going to have to go out on every stage for the next 50 years and sing this song every day, you know? you know, becoming successful at like 14 meant that music, which was for my whole childhood and my all my preteen years
before anything was something that I loved so much and enjoyed thoroughly, and, you know, my friends that would sing, we would sing together, and we would harmonize and do covers of stuff and record it, and I I got so much joy out of that. And then it became my job, and I kind of lost all my friends and I hated working with all these, you know, grown men when I was 14, 15. Those were not fun.
Those were not fun. I don’t know why they would have been, but you know, I I I literally like realized a couple months ago in hanging out with my my friends and just casually playing stuff together. musical and and making music, I was like, “Wait, this is my passion in life, and I love doing this so much, and also really good at it.
I’m a professional musician, apparently.” I’m like I was like apparently, but I was like I’m like oh, wait, I’m I’m I’m actually a I’m a professional musician. I didn’t I like don’t think about that, and I’m I’m I haven’t enjoyed it in a really long time, and I’m like and even when I do when we make music, I enjoy it, but it’s not for enjoyment, it’s for the making of it and for the putting it out and for the the point like you can enjoy something, but we take it really seriously.
We want to make something great. So, I never really get to have fun with it, and so I found myself in my living room with two of my friends, and we were all just playing music, and I literally like was going to cry. I was like, “You guys have no idea how much this means to me.” Like the thing that everyone probably assumes is like something that happens all over the time.
I don’t really get to enjoy making music like that. The conversation seems to be flowing beautifully from one thing to the next because yeah, the idea of being free and being able to go out there and make music that gets away from what it was kind of what the diner sounds like to me.
I think the nature of the music and I think the creepiness of the words conjures up a sense of there’s an unhinged nature to this song. And being human and it’s very core is kind of an unhinged experience. For sure. Right? Yeah. So, you’re really diving into something that defies any conventional logic or understanding in this song.
It’s like Yeah. Why am I even in this song? What is going on? Yeah, well, I think it was Yeah, and I think that now that I think about it, it’s a big it was like a a very un- unperfected song. Like it was we kind of Yeah. We it didn’t really change much from where it started. there we kept we kept cleaning it up too much, and then dirt all over it.
clean it up and be like, “This is better when it’s raw.” Even the the actual sound of the beat she one of Billie’s cool like lo-fi things that we do is like sometimes I’ll be like, “Do you want me to bounce this today?” She’ll go, “No, it’s okay.” And she’ll film the computer screen. That’s what I did for all these Oh, amazing.
So, you’re listening to it through iPhone, iPod coming through the speakers. It’s not even through the speakers. I’ll take a video of the screen. I love that. The slap of the room has a lot of life. Yeah. And so, Billie would then we’d be listening to then I would bounce it, and Billie would be like, “It sounds really sterile. It doesn’t have a slap.
” like my phone. And so, I set that up. I’ve done that. So, the beat on that song I re-amped. So, I like set up mics in the room and then played it through the room and then re-amped it. Well, also a big thing is also on over now, which is the end of the more, is the handheld mic we were talking about had this like delay on it, and when I was recording at one point I put the mic down, and it was picking up was feedback.
there was a lot of feedback, and I was like, “Tight.” And I just hit record and like let it next to the speaker. so that’s why the beat Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guitarists do feedback. Just holding the mic next to the Yeah. The production where it started, you know, we kind of had fun with it, and we came up with all that weird stuff.
And then I remember kind of over time I was like, “Is this like too like silly? Like is this not serious enough? Like you know, I kind of felt like it was this is weird to say, but it was almost like Billie Eilish-y. Right, Billie Eilish type beat, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, type beat. I was like, “Is this a little like that, maybe?” But I was like it’s kind of tight though, the way that that works.
You know, as a as a body of work we couldn’t ask for more truth and honesty and also character development, which as we’ve established you’re so good at. In the grand scheme are you are you too close to be able to identify yet, but what does this album afford you in the future? Where does it allow you to go? Great question.
I I have a I have a part answer before I feel like you should give a more real answer, but I was like I saw this interview years ago with Fiona Apple that was an old interview even then. It wasn’t present day where she was like, “You should finish an album and feel like you’ve got nothing left.” Yeah.
And I super felt that way when we finished it, and it’s been done now whole thing. Yeah, it’s been done now for 5 months, I guess, about. Yeah, we just felt like we’d given it everything we had, and that felt great. Like it felt great to not have stuff still on the table. Um and I think that we have like, you know, we we did a session a couple weeks ago, and we’re you know, more stuff planned, but I think exactly what Billie’s talking about.
Like I think we’re going to like be jamming and having a kind of an experimental, you know, fun experience. Like I think other people. was going to say that he I I are you able to let each other go in the loveliest way possible now knowing that when you come back, it’s still there for you if you want it to be? not even letting each other go, but it’s opening up to like more, you know? And I think like Finneas Finneas works with all kinds of different other artists and writes with a bunch of different people, and I think that it makes him I come back better.
Yeah. The from the very beginning of working with Billie, like I remember just to like the first example I can think of was like I did some session with somebody the day before Billie and I made copycat. And I like was suddenly on the spot with this artist. And they were like, “I want drums like this, right?” And I had to do this thing that and then I put the synth on it, and it was like all this stuff that then the next day when Billie and I sat down to work, I was like, “Do you want it like here’s some of the stuff I was sort of
working on yesterday.” And I think that yeah, you just gain all this experience, you know? And again, like I’d love to be a part of you know, all the steps in between with Billie if she wants, but I’m also like all of it’s good. If Billie and her her friends are sitting around sing you know, especially like singing anything that you love or just making stuff up, it’s like it’s so exciting.
Um Like this was the album I was always trying to make. You know what I mean? And and I really feel um I’m so proud of it, and I don’t I’m proud of it in a way that like been proud of things a couple times where like I my opinion of it does not hinge on anybody. It’s so meaningful to hear that you love it, but like if I heard that privately you were like, “I don’t really get it.
” I’d be like, “I love Zane, and that’s fine, and I love this album.” You know what I mean? Like to me it’s like it’s so kind of a validation from within of like I love how making this album felt. I love how listening to this album feels. You know, when we first went into playing it for people and who whoever like I was really nervous, and I genuinely had either no idea what people were going to think, and if anything I thought like people might not.
Like I don’t know if they’ll like it, and you know, I remember playing it for the label when it was not done, but there were pieces and A lot of it was done. Like seven or eight songs were Right. done. And of course we were like, “We’re not done.” But I remember um like John Janick, who is the head of my label, was like, “This is the best thing you’ve ever made.
” I want to give a shout out to John and Justin because I was I remember when it had when we’d finished it, we were like we were playing mixes. You know what I mean? Like production was done. Um and uh and it was like the first time they were hearing several of the songs and only the second time ever that they were hearing the rest of it, and we’d never said we’d love to know your thoughts.
We were just like, “Here’s the record.” And Billie was like with the lighting until it was the perfect color of blue. Like that was what we were on. And everyone was really nice, and we sat there and played it as loud as can be for everybody. And I sent John a text afterward, and I owe this to Justin and John, which is I was like, “It is not lost on me that you let us operate this way because first of all we know that most labels do not operate that way.
Most people do not operate that way with their artists where they they want to hear it. You know what I mean? They’re fronting you They’re fronting you money. They’re about to commit a huge amount of resources and whatever. It’s a relationship. It’s a relationship. And sometimes people have to feel like they were involved even like something.
Sometimes people if if you catch them off guard, they’re like, “Well, it’s done? It’s really?” You know what I mean? They have to be there. They have to you have to hold their hand. Yeah. And I also said to John, I was like, “We never would have been able to make this album if you’d done that to us.
If we’d been having to give you quarterly reports, if we’d been having to like keep updating you on it and sending you mixes, we would have like we had to make this album in the dark, quietly, alone. And and to a degree that Billy talked about earlier in the day, we weren’t even bouncing it to each other. That’s what I mean, you know? It was silent.
One of the if not the first question I asked you is what would you have said to each other if if you’d walked in eight years ago, whenever it was, into that bedroom and you were making that debut album and I think you’ve done it. I think I think you’re still there, but you’re here if that makes sense. be what we’d say.
We might say this album. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. I I I think you somehow recaptured that spirit that you had on in those early days and come back home. Come back to a place, but it’s like it’s all still possible. You know what’s possible now with the knowledge and experience of the last five or six years. what I also have as a piece of advice to give to anyone watching this that makes any form of art and maybe you feel this way.
I’m so relieved that I feel so great about this album because there were weeks on end of making it where I was like, I think we’ve lost it. That’s what I’m saying. And that like I think sometimes you think while you’re making something that it has to feel good in the moment to end up good. You know what I mean? That’s so true. Don’t get stuck on that.
It’s hard not to feel that way. You think this feels I feel so out of my comfort zone. I feel so vulnerable. That’s fire. What is To love it while you make it. it while you make it is fire. That’s a fire. That’s right. That’s a fire. A little bit of fear is good in that moment. Yeah, I mean I think a video of us writing What Was I Made For and there’s not one single moment while we wrote it where we were like, “Wow, that was good.
” We’re just doing the job. Okay, and okay, that line. All right. What’s the next line? That’s fear. Yeah. It’s fear. You always do the best work when creating, you know? It doesn’t you don’t have to be like Okay, so what’s this album? Fear or fire? Fear. It’s fear and it’s growth and it’s you know, discomfort, but also comfort and you know, growing and learning and and experiencing. And that is all fear.
I mean, what’s scarier than changing? What is scarier? Oh my god. Well, you know, that’s part of that’s part of the experience of life is to is to accept that you really can’t. And and and it’s the letting go and the moving forward is the is the all you can really focus on and and trust you got the tools to deal with it cuz trust me, it’s all un-deal-with-able.
People who talk about and look at their college experience or their high school experience as like this like unbridled period of joy or whatever, like I have so much empathy for like this thing that you cannot get back. get back again because it’s a moment in time. I’m so much empathy for all the kids that like lost all that to COVID, you know what I mean? Like it’s really challenging.
Why did you say what you said at the end of the album? Um That’s great. That’s That’s great. it. That’s fire. Okay, done. Just end it. Done. As soon as the album was mastered, I was like, I want to do the Zane interview. It was like so glad you wanted to do it. We never do this. Like this is fun. You know? Thank you, crew. That was Yeah, thanks, guys.
