Please welcome to the Bot Bible podcast. Bonnie McKe, >> we were wild. I was supposed to tour with the Jonas Brothers. I felt like I was being held hostage. Cool. This is a flop. Oh my god, being indie is so hard. I sort of had my like 8 mile moment where I just like looked in the mirror and was like, “You’re going to solve this puzzle.
” Yeah, I kind of got a bit of a reputation for that one cuz that’s unhinged. >> Hello everyone and welcome to the Bop Bible podcast. I am your host, Adam Barera, and you guys, I am so excited because today I am joined by such an incredible guest on this podcast. Not only has she written 10 number one hit singles such as California Girls and Teenage Dream by Katie Perry, Dynamite by Taio Cruz, and Hold It Against Me by Britney Spears.
But she’s also gained a fan base of her own through her original music, which I am looking forward to talking to her about. Please welcome to the Bot Bible podcast, Bonnie McKe. >> Hi, how’s it going? >> Thank you so much for joining us today. >> Thank you for having me. >> Of course. How’s your day going? How do you feel? >> Good.
Good. I’m feeling really good, actually. >> Yeah. Yeah. I’m so excited to talk to you. I don’t know if you knew this before, but my goal with this podcast was to just kind of just dissect iconic pop music eras. And so before I began it, I I put a poll on my social media asking my audience to vote for the album that they thought was the true pop bible between 1989 by Taylor Swift and Teenage Dream by Katy Perry.
Um, just because those were the two albums growing up. I always saw people refer to as the pop bible. And they voted for Teenage Dream. >> Oh my god. >> And so that was the first because of that that was the first album I dissected in the very first episode of the podcast. Amazing. >> Yeah. So, it’s just truly an honor to have you here today.
>> Someone who not only was behind that iconic era, but so many pop music eras. >> Thank you so much. Thank you. I’m happy to be here and I love talking about pop music. I could talk about it all day long. >> Yeah. Oh, me too. So, this is perfect. >> So, I really want to start with the beginning of your music journey and coming out to LA because you grew up in Seattle, correct? Yeah.
>> Okay. And then what originally brought you to LA? Was it just to pursue music? >> Yeah. Um, I started writing songs when I was like 12 or 13. I made a demo and um, I gave it to everyone I knew. Like I had a CD burner and I thought that I was like my own little record label because I could do like four of them at a time and I was like, “Oh my gosh, I’m so professional.
” Burned a bunch of CDs, gave them to everyone I knew and then someone I knew at school babysat for someone that knew someone in LA. It was like very out of the blue. Um, and I came down to LA and they played my my demo on Mornings Eclectic on NPR and um, there was a bidding war and I ended up getting a record deal. So nice. >> Yeah.
I’ve moved down here by myself at 16 years old and I’ve been here ever since. >> That’s crazy. That’s so young, too. >> And that CD you were talking about, that’s the Trouble album, correct? >> Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, what was it like getting signed to Warner at such a young age? >> Oh man. I mean, it was I felt like all of my dreams were coming true.
>> I felt like all of my problems were over. Um, I know it’s like, oh, you were 16. Like, how many problems could you have? A lot. I had a lot of problems. I had nothing left for me in Seattle anymore. Um, had kind of a rough go at it. So, I felt like all of my problems would be over.
And then, you know, I was like thrown to the wolves a little bit and I had to learn everything the hard way, of course. Um, but it was a dream come true and I learned a lot and I’m really grateful for the experience. Um, but you know, the first run was a rough one. For sure. >> For sure. Yeah. Yeah. But you already had the album done before signing then, correct? Yeah.
>> Okay. So, there wasn’t really Was there any like ANR going on at the time? >> Yes. So, I had written everything, but I I didn’t know any I didn’t even know what a producer was. I didn’t know I had no idea what a producer was, a mixer. I ANR. I didn’t know what any of the lingo was because I was really coming out of left field.
Um, and but I had the songs written that I had written just like on piano and like got my friend to play guitar on it, you know, and so we re-recorded everything and produced everything and I had the pleasure of working with Rob Kavalo who is a legend in his own right. He did Green Day and Michelle Branch and the GooGoo Dolls and all these people.
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So, um, I learned a lot about just the recording process working with him. >> Trouble comes out and you’re at this point 18 years old and the album doesn’t do as well as the label wanted it to. What were some of the conversations going on with you and the label at the time? >> Well, it was funny because it was kind of like the dawn of like internet music and no one had really figured it out yet.
I don’t think like iTunes wasn’t a thing yet, but like Yahoo Music was a thing and it was number one on Yahoo Music and then the label was like, “Cool, this is a flop.” And it was like, “Okay, but like how do we make that into something?” So, it was wellreceived, but um when it didn’t do as well as I thought it should on radio or whatever it was, then they sort of just abandoned ship and then I was held hostage there for many years.
>> Wow. How many years was it before you finally were able to leave? >> I think that I I think it was five or six years I was there. >> That’s a long time and a lot of that’s a long time to just be not releasing anything as someone who just put out their first album trying to make it big in the industry. >> Yeah, it was tough.
It was definitely tough >> for sure. And then you left the label in some might say it was like a dramatic way. I think it’s a very like pop diva, pop star sort of way. Could you explain how you left the label? >> Yeah. So, I felt like I was being held hostage and I wanted out. It was either like because I was writing new demos.
I was getting better. I was really honing my craft and I was a better songwriter than when they had first signed me. And so, I was sending all these songs in and no one was responding to my emails or answering my calls. And I went from being like industry darling to like nobody picking up. And so I wanted to send a message.
So I went down to the smoke shop on Hollywood Boulevard and I bought a dagger that had a tiger on the handle with a red bejeweled eye. And I went to the CEO’s house in the middle of the night and I burned a CD of my best new songs and I stabbed it into a tree that was right in front of his front door.
So it would be the first thing he saw when he walked out in the morning cuz I figured, look, he’s either going to listen to it and like take me seriously or he’s going to drop me and then I can just do whatever I want, you know? >> Um so he did the ladder. Um I got what I wanted. I did get dropped. >> Um but yeah, I kind of got a bit of a reputation for that one cuz that’s unhinged. That’s insane.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. but definitely sent a message for sure. You got what you wanted. You got out of the contract. And then what led into you deciding to start writing for other artists after that? >> I mean, I really kind of did it out of necessity. I was like, I didn’t even know what a publishing deal was.
I didn’t know anything about that. Um, but I was working with a producer and um, he was just about to sign his first publishing deal. Um, and he signed and then I ended up being client number two there at this little boutique company that is now Pulse Recordings, which is like a a proper publishing company.
And um, I just saw him like writing for this person and that person. I was like, “Oh, that’s a job where like people write songs for other artists.” Like, you know, you always assume that the artists write the songs themselves, but it takes a village to write a hit, you know? And so I was like, “Well, let me in there.
” It was kind of like annoying kid sister where I was like, “I can do that. I know how to do that. And so, um, I was I went from singing demos for like a couple hundred bucks a pop to, you know, trying to get my hands dirty and really learn about what it was like to co-write because that was the other thing.
I I wrote the whole album myself. So, I didn’t know anything about co-writing. And that is like a skill that you have to learn. It’s about compromise. It’s like kind of an ego death. Um, and so I just, you know, kept my head down and honed my skills. >> Yeah, absolutely. For anybody listening, could you explain how a publishing deal differs from a standard recording contract that they’ll get from a label? >> Yeah.
So, um, a label deal, like a record deal is for an artist. Like an artist will sign a deal and they’ll, you know, pay to make the album and all of that. And then a publishing deal is kind of like a publisher is like an agent for a songwriter. So, they’ll set up sessions for you. They’ll be the middleman between you and the labels. and they’ll the labels will tell them what they’re looking for and you know they’ll sort of give you assignments and set you up with other producers and writers and stuff.
So they’re they’re kind of like an agent for songwriters. >> Absolutely. Okay. And then you start working with Pulse Recordings. How long had it been at that point since you had left Warner and started working with Pulse? How many years? >> Um maybe like four or five years. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Nice.
And then I want to talk a little bit about your early days of writing with other >> other artists because you had written for two very big TV stars. You wrote for I Carly’s Miranda Cosgrove >> and um you wrote for Gossip Girls Leighton Mester >> and so is there a reason why at the start they the publishers were having you work with these big TV stars? I think it was just like they were making records and I feel like you know TV was like the teenage TV shows were really thriving at the time like on the CW and whatever and so it made sense and like
obviously I had a female perspective and I was their age and so it made sense for me to help them tell their stories. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I love those songs though. And like those two in particular, I feel like every year Miranda and Leon always go viral because people just like reminisce on their music careers and they’re like, “Wow, like that was actually really iconic and they’re underrated for sure.
” >> Yeah. I mean, the music was good. It was fun. >> Very good pop songs. I was listening to them yesterday and I was like, “Wow, like these deserve to be hits for sure.” >> Thank you. >> Yeah, absolutely. And so, how did you end up meeting Katie after that then? Well, while I was still signed, I met Katie um when I was I guess 18, 19.
And um we were both broke artists. We had both had record deals but were like, you know, spent all of our advance. And so we were selling our clothes at a thrift store. >> And we met in line and we were both being rejected and we kind of bonded over that. And then she she knew my work where she knew like the deep cuts on the trouble album and I was like, “Oh wow.
” Like I had never been recognized in public before. So that was like awesome. >> That’s crazy. The first person recognized you being another artist, Katy Perry. Like >> Yeah. And I was just I didn’t have any friends my age really. I didn’t have a whole lot of friends because I had just moved out here. I didn’t go to school.
I, you know, I didn’t graduate high school. I got kicked out of high school. That’s a whole other story. But um so when I came to LA, I was just surrounded by like men in their 40s and suits. You know, I didn’t have a lot of peers. And so when I met her and she also did the same thing that I did and was really good at it, I was like, “Oh, like I think we’re gonna be fast friends.
” And we were >> for sure. Yeah. And how did that lead then to collaborating in the studio? >> Um well she we were friends and we would like party together or whatever and then um I got dropped and she got resigned and um she went on and did one of the boys and that was a huge hit. And then it was like my first experience of like watching someone I know get famous.
Yeah. >> And being like whoa like that dreams really do come true, you know? >> So it was definitely inspiring for me to see. Um and then she I I was like meanwhile going off and writing songs for the Leighton Meers and the Elliot Yian of the world. And then um she started on the second album and and she called me in to work on it.
>> And what was the first song you guys wrote for on Teenage Dream? >> Um Part of Me. >> Oh wow. Okay. That’s interesting because Part of Me came out last. Yeah. On the album. Okay. >> It was crazy. Like we we wrote Part of Me and then um everyone thought it was going to be the first single and then we kept writing and we just kept beating ourselves.
We just kept getting better >> and so it kind of didn’t even make it on the first draft of of the Teenage Dream album and it ended up on the Deluxe. >> Yeah. One reason I love Teenage Dream was that I feel like the creative direction was so different from what other pop stars were doing at the time. like other pop stars were having very dark eras I felt.
>> And so Teenage Dream comes in and it’s this very like bright candy colored world. >> So was this something that was going on while you were recording the while you guys were writing the album? Were these conversations that you were having like Katie was saying, “Oh, I want this album to be like bright and colorful.
” And were you guys talking about what what it would look like creatively? I mean, Katie always has ideas about what it’s going to look like creatively. Like, she she is her creative director and um she naturally was always very colorful. Um and the lyrics are very colorful, you know. Um I think one thing that I noticed when I went and checked out her music before, you know, when we first met was that I was like, “Oh, she has really visual lyrics and so do I.
” And so we automatically just had like a very similar style and songwriting. Um, and I feel like similar to me when she writes a song, she sees the music video as she’s writing it, you know. Um, so I think that’s always a part of the conversation, but she was always driving that >> in mind. Okay. >> So, California Girls was your first number one song as a songwriter.
Such a great West Coast anthem. Thank you. >> Of course. So, was the goal with that song to create kind of like the California version of Empire State of Mind by Jay-Z and Alicia Keys, which was just number one before that? >> Yeah. Yeah. and we would be out at the club dancing to that and she was always just like we’re not in New York.
Like why are we like singing this anthem for the East Coast? Like we need to represent the West Coast. So that’s what we did. And you know I was born in Northern California. Um and I lived in California till I was eight or nine and then I moved to Seattle. So my whole childhood was spent in California and watching like MTV Beach House and like you know running around barefoot with a suntan like that that was my childhood.
And um so we both had this sort of California experience as children and um we had a lot to pull from. You know, >> truly such a great summery pop song. Really like one of the songs of the summer from 2010. It was amazing and the fact that you um that you’re a California girl, she’s a California girl. Snoop Dog, California girl.
Like all these California girls definitely a California girl. >> Yeah, I love that. So then Cal California Girls goes number one, as I said, like one of the songs of the summer of 2010. And then Teenage Dream comes out and also goes number one. And I want to ask you a little bit about Teenage Dream because this was a song that took a while to sort of get right.
Correct. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It was maybe the hardest song I ever wrote. >> So, what was that process like and what do you remember when it clicked to you that you were that you that this idea for Teenage Dream came to you and then you brought it into the studio? >> So, Teenage Dream was a difficult one to write.
Um, but I think it was one of those ones where the track was done, the melody was 80% there, and we knew that there was something special. >> Mhm. >> And we had a few different versions of it that were kind of like they were fine. And any one of them could have worked, you know, like one of them was like try me on where it was kind of like dress you up in my love where it was all like fashion references, which is very Katy, very camp, you know.
Um, but there was like a little more depth to this one. And so we were just kind of beating our heads against the wall for so long and we finally settled on one where Max Martin was like, “Okay, this is done. We cannot spend any more time on this song. We have already spent so much time writing this [ __ ] song.
” So, um, so they went up to Santa Barbara to record everything and like keep writing. And I I wasn’t sure if I was invited yet because I was like kind of new into the crew, you know? Um, but while they were gone, I was like, I know Max Martin said not to write anymore on it, but I’m just going to see what I can do.
So, I sort of had my like eight mile moment where I just like looked in the mirror and was like, “You’re going to solve this puzzle, bitch.” >> And and I started thinking about like what it felt like. It felt young. It felt like new love. Um, and I thought about, you know, my first boyfriends and in high school and like my fantasies of what my first love would be like when I was in middle school and stuff and thinking about like Leonardo DiCaprio or whatever it was at the time.
And um, I remember like my first real boyfriend, real life boyfriend in high school, uh, like the moment of of like realizing I could be vulnerable around somebody because I think when you’re dating, when you’re young, everyone’s nervous. Like you’re constantly nervous. Everything is embarrassing. Everything is scary.
And when you can get to a point with someone where you can not be wearing makeup and they still think you’re pretty. I think that was like a realization to me where I was like, “Yeah, that’s like when you know it’s love.” Like when you can really be comfortable with somebody like that. >> And so I was thinking about that and then I was like >> like what era was that teen it’s teen I was a teenager and I was like the word teenager is such a good word.
It says it evokes so much in just a few syllables, but it was too many syllables cuz the melody was already written. So, I cut it down to teenage and then I was thinking about like wet dreams or whatever and I was like, you know, teenage dream. >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember when Katie decided that she wanted that to be the title and how you felt for the album? >> Well, I Oh, for the album.
I was I wasn’t even there for that decision. I um I was shocked when I heard that and I was honored and I was just like that’s amazing. I’m I’m I don’t know. That’s like I’m really proud of that. That makes me really happy. >> Yeah, that’s such a great accomplishment because it’s truly one of the most iconic pop songs in history.
>> Thank you. >> Yeah, for sure. And you mentioned how before writing Teenage Dream, you weren’t quite sure if you were part of the crew yet. So after writing it, is that when you felt like, okay, I’m in this writing crew. I’m going to write more for this album, >> right? Well, I had done Part of Me and then we had been working on Teenage Dream and that’s all I had worked on so far. Just those two songs.
And so then they went off to Santa Barbara and I was like, “Okay, well I guess like cool. I got two Katy Perry songs. That’s awesome.” Yeah. >> And then they invited me and I was like, “Okay, I got the invite. So maybe I am a part of this crew.” And um I went up and then we we wrote um the rest of the songs we wrote um last Friday night uh that was like really based in reality.
>> Yeah. A lot of that stuff is real. >> Based off true story. Yeah. >> Um and then California Girls was the last one we wrote, actually. >> Oh, really? Okay. Okay, that’s interesting. So, started with Part of Me That came out last, finished with California Girls that came out first. Okay. Yeah, >> that’s crazy. Wow.
Um, but I wanted to ask you about Last Friday Night, too, because I feel like a reason the Teenage Dream era worked really well was that it resonated with so many different age demographics. And I feel like Last Friday Night is one of those songs where like, yeah, adults love partying and could listen to it while they’re partying, but also kids could love it too, especially because the music video had Rebecca Black and these Glee stars, so like kids and teen audience appreciated it a lot.
And so, um, you mentioned that it was based off of True Story. So, was it just based off of you and Katie kind of just going out together? >> Yeah. I mean, like we were wild. We were wild and we were running Hollywood. Um, I just went and saw Katie’s show at the forum the other night and she was talking about those wild days back back then and uh, yeah, all kinds of crazy things went down >> and so we were really just reminiscing like that one.
It was a super wordy song. That’s the thing about that one like every time it comes on the radio I can’t sing along. I can’t remember the words. I’m like how was this a hit? Like there are way too many words in the song. But um but writing it was fairly easy because it was just like you know it was very tongue and cheek so we didn’t take ourselves too seriously and it was really fun.
We were just cracking up the whole time and some of the reject lyrics were really funny. Um I don’t remember any of them off the top of my head but it I have some Tik Toks about that where I like go through the notebooks because I write everything in in old school analog notebooks. Um and yeah it kind of wrote itself. That was an easy one.
>> Absolutely. I think the song Wide Awake was the perfect song to close out the Teenage Dream era um when she had released it with the whole deluxe version. >> And so was Wide Awake a song that you guys wrote after Teenage Dream was already after that whole era had already started and she had already put out >> Yeah.
>> You know, California Girls Teenage Dream. >> Yeah. So technically, uh Wide Awake was the last one that we wrote. Um I didn’t know that Part of Me was going to be on the Deluxe. I just thought we were writing like one extra song for the deluxe or something. But um >> yeah, Wide Awake was I’m so so grateful that I got to have this very rare experience of standing next to an artist and writing with an artist, collaborating with an artist through an era of their life.
Because when we wrote Teenage Dream, she was engaged. She was newly in love. >> Um it was her sophomore album. Like you know, the world was open to her, you know. And uh and so she was literally on a pink cloud, you know, and on the cover of Teenage Dream. And then by the time this whole whirlwind had been over, which was a good year and a half, two years of Teenage Dreamland, um she was in the middle of a divorce.
And um so when we sat down to write the song, it was really about, you know, falling from Cloud9. Uh it’s kind of the sister song to Teenage Dream. >> Yeah. >> Um and sort of like waking up from the Teenage Dream. >> For sure. Yeah, I I I love that song so much and I love how kind of vulnerable she was in the Part of Me documentary and just like showcasing all of that.
And yeah, it truly just was a great way to close out the era. And it’s crazy because I feel like a lot of times when big artists release a final single off of an album, they don’t chart that high. Then that marks like the end of the era. Whereas Wide Awake, it was still a smash hit.
Like it wasn’t a number one, but I think it had still gone in the top five. Like it was >> still such a big pop song that people were obsessed with. >> Yeah. And I feel that like that really has everything to do with Katie being being vulnerable and people knowing what’s really going on in her life and knowing that her lyrics really come from her experience and they’re kind of like lifted straight from her diary, you know.
Um I feel like audiences can smell a rat, you know, and they know when something is not genuine or authentic. And I think she was really tapped in to that. Um >> I think that’s why it hit because it came from a real place. >> Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned that you just went to the Lifetimes tour. What was it like hearing all these songs years later? >> It’s wild.
It’s very surreal to be in an arena like that and have everybody singing these words and everyone standing around me like having no idea that I co-wrote the songs, you know. >> Um it’s really magical. It’s really moving and you know seeing fans like crying and freaking out like I mean that’s why I do what I do, you know? Like I I just I want to connect with people.
I want to give people something that gives them hope, that makes them happy, that brings them joy, something that they that brings them catharsis. Um I it’s really about human connection to me. So seeing the fans in action is a really magical experience for me. >> Absolutely. Yeah. It’s just I mean you were a huge part of that writing process and the lyrics that fans connect to.
So it’s just so special to hear about. And do you think that you would ever get back into the studio with Katie and collaborate with her again? >> Oh, I would love to. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m I’m a big fan and I feel like she’s sort of my like musical soulmate in a lot of ways. >> I love that. Yeah.
And I’m sure the fans would love that, too. So, while Teenage Dream was having all this success, Dynamite by Ty Cruz comes out and this is like mid 2010 as well. And that song starts taking off. And the difference with Ty Cruz was that in the US he wasn’t like a super wellestablished artist. He was bigger in the UK. And so when writing that song Dynamite, first off, like what was the story behind it? And was the goal to break him in the US? >> I mean, I didn’t I didn’t have a goal as far as like what’s happening with the artist. That’s not my job. But um
>> no, we Max wrote the melody and it was great and the track was great and we all knew that there was something cool there. And um I think originally it was supposed to go to uh Flow Rider. >> Oh wow. >> Um which would have been cool too. >> Um but Ty was like on the rise and he really like had some heat.
He’s a fantastic songwriter. He’s really really so great and really hardworking. >> Um and so I had this melody that Max had given me and I was just like phonetically trying to work out what it was going to be. And at the time I was flirting with the idea of getting sober. And so I was going through like kind of a a deep sort of spiritual transition in my life and I was like I don’t really feel like writing a party song today.
But um so the song people always ask me you know why do you only put your hands up in the air sometimes. Like I throw my hands up in the air sometimes. I’m like well because it’s not like literally about time. It’s about like >> sometimes you just got to throw your hands up in the air and let go. So the song for me was about surrender.
>> Yeah. Um, which not a lot of people know, but >> Yeah. And so did that whole melody of the chorus then come from you originally? >> No. No, that was Max Martin. Yeah. >> Got you. Okay. Okay. Then the lyrics came from you. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And so yeah, so Teenage Dream and then Dynamite and then you’re also working on Fen Patel by Britney Spears.
>> Britney is obviously a pop icon and a pop genius. Did you get to be in the studio with her for these sessions? >> I did not. No. Okay. I have some friends that have worked closely with her. Um, Nicole Morier, who’s amazing, uh, she wrote a bunch of the Britney stuff and she got to write with Britney and she was like, she’s a great writer and she’s so fun to work with.
>> One of the songs you wrote for Britney was Hold It Against Me, which went number one. And so this song and all the songs you wrote for Britney, did you have them in mind of going to Britney beforehand, or was it like sort of like a camp for her, or was it kind of like you pitching it to multiple artists? >> No, it was it was like a very focused camp.
So there was like several months of like different teams of people all working together and it was really really fun because Britney is always ahead of the curve. So we were really encouraged to get weird and to think outside the box and there was really nothing traditional about it. Um and I mean I I just still can’t believe that I got to write for Britney Spears like iconic because I I grew up listening to her and idolizing her, you know.
>> Yeah. Such an accomplishment for sure. And so after having all these number one hits, you start releasing music again as a solo artist, you signed with Epic Records and release American Girl in 2013. And so what did you what was the uh decision-m process for you with like deciding to embark on this artist journey again after not releasing an album yourself since Trouble? Mhm.
Well, the goal of me writing songs was always to be a stepping stone to be an artist again. Um, I mean, I never stopped being an artist, but, >> you know, I I knew that I needed to like have a name for myself and like get my name out there and sort of uh maybe mend my reputation a little bit after pulling that knife stunt.
Um, and so, and I also knew I needed to hone my craft because I think that, you know, part of the big reason that the first album didn’t do anything was because I, it was the first songs I ever wrote when I was like 14, 15 years old. >> So, uh, I really was just like earning my stripes and honing my craft and learning how to craft a hit song.
>> And then, um, >> yeah, and then I I had the connections then where I was like, okay, I know everyone and all the labels, like I have good relationships. And so the time had finally come for me to step back into the spotlight. >> Yeah. So at the same time though, you were still writing for other artists.
I think this was this was 2013, so it was during the Prism era. So you were writing for Prism >> and also working on your own music. So what was that like trying to >> both be a songwriter for other artists but also work on your own material? >> It was kind of hard um because being both of those jobs are full-time jobs.
Being a professional songwriter is a full-time job if you want to do it right. Um, and then being an artist is a full-time job. Um, so I was definitely pulling a lot of doubles and like I remember when we were in the studio writing Roar, I had to get there early because I had to do I had to like approve a music video like via Zoom or Skype or whatever it was back then.
Um, and I was just like every hour of my day was taken up because I was doing double duty, you know. Um, so it was hard, but it was it was fun though to still have that momentum from, you know, writing with the biggest people in the world. Uh, but it was ironic because when American Girl came out, I was competing with myself on the radio.
I was competing with Roar, which is like, >> it’s crazy. >> There’s no competing with Roar. You know what I mean? >> Absolutely. Yeah. So, American Girl comes out, it does pretty well. It enters the Hot 100. And so, after this, was there just a lot of pressure from the label to just follow it up with another song? cuz you were at that point trying to release your other song, Slay.
>> Yes. Yeah. Um, so Ellie Reed was like, “We need another hit.” Like, “This one’s done.” And I was like, “Is it done though?” Because it was climbing the charts. I think we got to number 22 on the Billboard Hot 100. And I was like, >> I this seems like it’s working and if we keep just pushing a little bit more, I think we could go all the way with it.
>> But they were like, “Yeah, on to the next one.” And I was like devastated. I was so devastated when they like stopped putting money behind American Girl. I was like, “Okay, back to the drawing board. Let’s go. I’m a professional, so now I’m gonna I’m able to write under the gun.” But it was really scary because it was like, “Okay, this is like my second chance in the industry, so I better get it right.
” Um, and I called so many friends because I was stuck. I was just like under so much pressure. And I was like, “This has got to be amazing. This has got to be better than American Girl.” And um, and I came up with sleigh. And it’s funny because like sleigh has now become just like an everyday word in everyone’s language. And at the time it was more of like an you know, underground sort of queer word that people use, but it wasn’t used in like regular language.
And I was like, is anyone even gonna get this? Like, I don’t know. Um, and then I toured with it. Um, well, I was supposed to tour with the Jonas Brothers is what is what happened. And then >> they broke up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The day before the tour started. >> Yeah. I can’t even imagine how that felt for you because you had just put out American Girls.
so excited to just embark on this new music journey and then you’re supposed to tour with one of the biggest boy bands who breaks up the day before. Yeah, >> that’s insane. >> Yeah, all of our gear was already shipped out to Phoenix where the tour was starting. Uh we were all celebrating like had my farewell party, whatever. And then the day before they were like, “Yeah, no, everything’s canceled.
” >> That’s crazy. >> And it is crazy cuz that would have completely changed the trajectory of my career. >> Absolutely. Yeah. And so what was the next step after that then with the label with when they were like okay this tour isn’t happening. What do we where do we go from here? >> Yeah.
Uh well I think that they were like oh yeah I knew I needed to go on tour. I knew I needed to make something happen right away. So I called Amy from Carmen who is now known as Queen Herby. >> And we were friends. We I had written on their album and everything and I was like I heard you’re going on tour. Like you need an open burner. Let’s go.
And so I managed to finagle this tour and uh I played all of these songs on tour and I met so many fans and it was so much fun. It was amazing. And then um halfway through the tour, LA Reed was like, “Yeah, I don’t think that silly is a hit.” And then I was called my manager and was like, “I don’t want to do this.
I can’t do this again. I’ve already been held hostage before. >> I got plenty of other stuff going on. I got plenty of money right now. Like I’m just going to do this myself. I don’t want to deal with this.” So, I left the label and then I put out Bombastic. That was my first independent release. >> That’s awesome.
I mean, that’s great that you were able to get out of that deal and not Yeah. not be held hostage like you were before. You had already gone through that before. >> Yeah. Well, I had a great manager at the time. Terry Carter was was awesome. >> That’s awesome. And so, yeah. So, Bombastic comes out, your first independent project in 2015, correct? >> So, what was that like? Obviously nowadays it’s very different promoting music as an independent artist, but in 2015, what was it like promoting that independent project? >> You know, it’s crazy. Like I think about
it, like I try to remember because I these days it’s so it’s a full-time job. Oh my god, being indie is so hard. It is so much work. You have to be a marketing genius. You have to be able to talk on camera. You have to shoot it. You have to edit it. You have to, you know, all this stuff.
And I’m like, how did I do this before? because the Bombastic EP charted um it was in the top 10 on iTunes and I think Billboard on indie releases. Um so I really don’t even remember. I just am like how did that happen? I have no idea. I think I just still had a lot of momentum from American Girl. So people were like paying attention.
>> So at this point you had already had a pretty well-established fan base. I mean, for being able to chart with Bombastic, chart with American Girl, and so as an independent artist, then what was your next step after Bombastic? >> Um, you know, there was like a few years in there where I kind of went dark, >> where I kind of lost hope a little bit and I sort of needed to recalibrate and figure out what I wanted to do, who I wanted to be, if I wanted to keep being a songwriter.
um because that’s where people wanted me. Um, but then there was a big shift in in the music zeitgeist where it was no longer my wheelhouse, which is like, you know, classic pop anthems, sparkly, upbeat, whatever. Things sort of changed, things shifted, where it was like a lot of Drake, it was Lord, it was Billy Eyish, like things were more down tempmpo, it was more sort of bedroom pop.
And I was just like, I don’t know where I fit. Like, I don’t know. I think I just need to take a break because there was a time when I would go in the studio to write and I would just like burst into tears. I just was like, I I I don’t want to be here. I don’t want to do this. And I had also been going so hard for so long without a break.
Like I was really running myself down. And so I took a break and I was in a really horrible relationship too, which like didn’t help. So I sort of just like, you know, had a mental breakdown for a few years. And then uh and then once I got out of that relationship, then I sort of rediscovered myself >> with your music. >> Yeah.
And I rediscovered like who I wanted to be and what I stand for. >> Um and then once I got on TikTok, that changed everything for me because I feel like there was so much uh there’s such a community there. Yeah. >> And so when people started finding me through my talking about songwriting stuff, they were like, “What happened to Hot City? what happened to Slay and Forever 21 and all these songs that I had toured with but never released because Epic still owned the Masters and I was like, “Huh, these kids really actually want to hear these songs and
they remember them and they have tattoos of the lyrics and stuff and I was like, I miss that too and I want to put that out too.” And so they really were the ones that encouraged me to to put out Hot City finally. >> Yeah. So, Hot City was an album that you started working on under Epic and originally they had owned the songs and the songs started leaking at one point, right, to the fans. Okay.
And what was your reaction to that? Because I can’t, as an artist, like I can’t imagine how it feels like when you’re working so hard on something and then it just ends up leaking. >> It sucks. And, you know, I was so devastated when those songs leaked because I always kind of had a dream that they would see the light of day.
Um, but I, you know, things have changed a lot, um, as far as, you know, fandoms and leaks and stuff like that. Um, but I really in my head was like, well, if it leaks, then it can never come out. And so, thanks for that, guys. Like, I was pissed. >> But, um, because it’s my own. I mean, it’s it is a different story when if I write something for another big artist and then that leaks, then they won’t touch it because it’s taken away the element of surprise or whatever.
Um, I also don’t like the element of surprise being taken away from me. um please don’t leak songs if you get a hold of them. Please don’t do that. However, in this particular case, you know, the fans have been waiting. I hadn’t put anything out in years and it was, I think, just an a cry for help. >> Um, and you know, I’m glad that it happened the way that it did because I found a forum where it was like 500 pages long of all these kids talking about these songs and trading the leak demos and even like bootleg recordings
from the Carmen tour. Yeah. >> And so it really showed me how hungry they were to hear these songs. And that like gave me the confidence to revisit them. And so I ended up re-recording them, pulling a Taylor Swift. Yeah. >> And releasing them myself. >> I love that. Hot City for sure. And yeah, I feel like as much as leak songs suck and like I just cannot imagine how devastating it is, in some cases it does like help build your community.
And like that’s clearly what it did for you. These fans heard these songs, they were like, “Oh my gosh, these are so good and I really want her to release them.” Yeah. >> Yeah. So, fans would come up to you and stuff like that, be like, “Where were these songs?” >> Yeah. >> And, you know, it’s just I think the thing about it is that it’s kind of creepy because it’s like, “How did you get this?” >> Mhm.
>> Like, are you up in my, you know, Dropbox? Like, what what how did you get this? >> Cuz like we hear about leaks all the time on the internet, but how do leaks actually happen? >> I don’t know. No, I mean I think that you know sometimes when things are being pitched for sync and stuff like that’s where people use your song in like a commercial or a TV TV or movies or whatever and so it kind of gets passed through a lot of hands and so there’s interns and there’s this person and that’s that person. So it’ll just be
kind of sitting in a random person’s inbox and if they happen to be a fan >> then you know >> you decided to re-record Hot City. Was this process harder than you thought it was going to be? Yes, definitely. Um, because on the one hand, I wanted to refresh it and make sure that it still felt modern but had like the nostalgia that I know that the fans wanted.
Um, but I couldn’t change them that much because the fans had demo itis and I wanted to make sure I didn’t disappoint them and change it too much. But in all honesty, the album was not finished. Like when I toured those songs, I was like in the middle of making the album still. like I I changed lyrics halfway through that that tour.
Um and the fans know that where there’s like different lyrics and slay and the chorus and stuff. Um but I wasn’t finished with it yet, you know, so I finally got the chance to finish them. But it is hard to go back and fix old songs because you get demoitis, but also like it’s kind of a lonely experience because the songs for the most part are already written and I’m used to collaborating.
I love to collaborate. I love having someone to sort of ping pong with and share the creative experience with. So having to fix everything on my own got like a little bit lonely. >> Yeah, absolutely. For sure. And since the label had owned that song, that whole album before then or at least the demos that you were recording, what was the process of being able to legally do that again? Was there like conversations that you had to have with Sony and like doing that? >> Yeah, it was a long process and it was really painstaking. However, Sony came
around and they did me a solid and they’ve been really cool about it and, you know, that we’ve gotten some, you know, new sinks on American Girl even because they still own that one cuz, you know, they actually put it out and everything. >> Um, and it’s actually been pretty great. Like they they’ve been supportive and I can’t complain.
But it was it was I didn’t have like a lawyer helping me. So, I was like doing all this like research online of like what the laws are about masters and the you know, how many years it has to be and all that. Um, so there was like a solid like almost year of me just like, >> you know, just grinding trying to figure that out. >> Trying to re be able to re-record it.
And then once you were able to figure that out, how long did it take to re-record it in the studio? >> Probably like a year. Um, because I was also simultaneously shooting music videos, editing music videos, writing for other artists. Um, you know, I just I wear so many hats and so, you know, a lot of the fans I think complain about like how long it takes for me to put stuff out and I’m like, it’s literally me, guys. Like, I’m doing everything.
And so, I’m not taking my time for fun. I really just like this is how long it takes to create something. And I’m also a perfectionist and I want it to be at the standard that you all expect my work to be. So, >> sorry. >> Great. Art takes time. Like, but something I love about your TikTok is that you always share your demos of like old songs and just like stories behind songs that people might not know that you’re behind.
And one of those songs is Christina Aguilera’s cult classic, Let There Be Love. And you wrote on your Tik Tok caption that Christina was someone that you looked up to growing up and you never got to meet her while writing the song. So, was this another song that you wrote with the intention of it going to her? It was originally written, I think, with Miley Cyrus in mind. Okay. Wow.
>> Um, and Miley actually came in and I think she’s she sang a version of it. I do not have that version. Don’t even try to look for it. I haven’t heard it. I don’t think we even finished it. It was just like it was just not for her. Like she was going in a more sort of it was just a totally different direction.
If you listen to that song versus what she ended up putting out, >> um, what was it? Bangers. >> Yeah. Completely different. >> Completely different. So, it just like didn’t make sense. Um, but it went to Christina and I’m so so proud to have a Christina cut. I love her so much. I like as a kid, well, I mean, we’re like the same age pretty much, but um, growing up I would try to match her runs and learn every word to her song and I just I love all of her visuals.
I feel like she’s like a true blue artist. >> Something I want to ask you about is um because you’ve written with two of my favorite pop girls, Ava Max and BB Rexa. Um, Ava with the song Naked and that’s one of my favorites off of her album Heaven and Hell and Bie with the song Heart Wants What It Wants off of her self-titled album.
And so me just as a fan of them, I would just love to know the process of writing those songs. >> Yes. Um, Naked was originally I wrote that one in my dark era for myself. >> Wow. >> Uh, yeah. When I was like having my mental breakdown. Yeah. Uh that was a song that I wrote for my own project and I was just like so insecure at the time and I really was like I just like whatever.
I’m not ready to put music out. I I can’t do this. And it sort of just was collecting dust on a hard drive somewhere. And then luckily uh my producers had the you know great idea of playing it for Mike Karen who was an&rring the um the Ava Max album. And so like several years later, I get a call from Mike Karen and he’s like, “We want to have this be a single for Ava Max.
” And I was like, “What?” Like, “How did you even get that?” It was one of those things where I was like, “Who gave this to you?” Like, “What?” >> But I was like, “You know what? >> It was a vulnerable song, too, for you.” So, >> yeah. Yeah, definitely. So, um, so I I went in with Ava and we rewrote it to kind of like fit her perfectly. Um, she’s also a fantastic writer and a fantastic singer and I’m a huge fan and just a sweetheart of a girl. funny, too.
What a character. Um, and yeah, and she ended up cutting it and it was a single and I it’s just it was one of those ones that I was like, “Wow, I I had kind of given up on that one and I guess I didn’t like see in it what everybody else saw >> and so it was like validating to be like, okay, like maybe I’m just too hard on myself sometimes, you know?” >> Yeah. I love that song.
As a fan of hers, I feel like that song really holds that album together. So, after I found out that you were behind it, I was like, “That just makes so much sense because these lyrics are great.” Thank you. >> Yeah. And then Hearts Wants What It Want. Heart Wants What It Wants by BB Rexa I love too. >> Yeah, I love that song. BB is a riot.
Like she’s so insanely talented. She’s a fantastic songwriter. Um most of that was written when I walked in the room. I just came in to like sort of >> doctor things and polish and you know help with the angles and whatever. Um but that song was mostly written. And then also the other song I did on the album was Miracle Man, which I think that one is my favorite.
I love Miracle Man and I feel like nobody talked about it and that is a bop and a half like Miracle Man justice for Miracle Man. >> That whole album honestly like the whole like pop rock dance vibe that she was going for like if you get it you get it like >> dude she was like really on a Fleetwood Mac tip and I was like this is like >> there was some good stuff. Yeah.
Like >> I feel like there is like some really classic impressive songwriting on there. I only did two songs on there and I did very little on them, but just the body of work is really impressive and it’s one of my favorite things that she’s ever done >> for sure. >> Um, so Justice, Justice for VB. >> Absolutely.
Can we expect you guys to work together again? >> I’d love to. Yeah. No, I I love VB. >> That’s awesome. So, right now you’re working on your Hot City Deluxe. Can you tease anything coming out? Any release dates? Anything? >> Um, yeah. Well, I actually just announced that uh I have Kaisa featured on Electric Heaven.
Um, so that’s very exciting. We’re going on tour in August and um yeah, I’m really looking forward to that. We shot a music video that I’m in the weeds editing as we speak >> and uh I included five songs that the fans had said that they were upset that they weren’t included on the original Hot City.
So, the whole album is curated by the fans and so I, you know, I listen so I had to give the fans what they wanted. >> I love that though. I mean, you like clearly care like a lot about your fans. I do >> even just like the Hot City project in general like that being curated by the fans and you’re releasing it like it’s so special and it makes your community stronger. Absolutely.
>> Thank you. Yeah. I mean I I do it for them honestly. Like when I feel like giving up I think about those fans and I think about like >> I don’t know. I feel like I somehow have become the poster child for perseverance like whether I like it or not. >> And I’m just like if I give up. >> Yeah.
And those are the fans that will stick with you like no matter what and no matter how many years it’s been. For sure. >> Yeah. And something I love about you is that you’re always like thinking about your visuals and stuff like that. So you said you recorded a music video, filmed a music video, and you’re editing it right now.
So is do you like edit everything? Like are you very hands-on with the editing process then? I can’t even imagine. Wow. >> Yes. Oh my god, Hot City almost just put me in the ground. Yeah. >> Um, yeah, I edit all my music videos and it’s exhausting, but I just I have a vision and I also direct or co-direct every music video that I do and I’m the only person that knows and I feel like every time I’ve tried to delegate and like explain to someone like this is how I want it to be, it’s just like I just know that I’m I’m the one to do it, but
it takes me so long because I’m like combing through every second. >> Very timeconuming for sure. Yeah. But in the end, you know, you’ll like it and >> Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. >> So, obviously a huge part of this podcast is dissecting pop music eras and I have to know from you since you since you have been involved with so many iconic eras, what for you defines a pop music era? >> Um, I don’t know.
I mean, I think there’s usually like three top artists that you’re like, “Oh, yeah, that era.” Where it’s like when you think of the 80s, it’s like Madonna, Michael Jackson, Prince. like that’s what I think of. >> Um or like the ‘9s it’s like you know Nirvana and Pearl Jam and whatever. Um I feel like there’s like I don’t know every pop music goes in fiveyear cycles and so uh it also is connected to the economy.
So when you hear the term recession pop that means that things are not going great in the economy and people want something that’s uplifting. Whereas when the economy is booming, people have a little more room for introspective music. Um, but like sad songs in a sad era, it is like too much for everybody. So, everyone’s kind of turning to pop music to escape.
>> Um, so that’s where recession pop comes from. >> That makes sense. I think about like COVID and Dual Lipa’s future nostalgia basically owning that era because everybody was stuck inside and wanted to just think about dancing in the club. >> Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. >> Yeah. Are there any upand cominging songwriters that you would like to shout out? >> Um yes.
Uh Liam Benon I think is is my fave. >> Yeah. >> Um he actually I met him because he was a president of my fan club when he was 12 years old and um he started sending me songs during the pandemic when he was like 15. And I was like uh oh at first cuz I was like oh you’re my fan. I just want to like keep it fanny, you know, like cuz I don’t want to like have to tell you that your songs suck, right? And then he sent me songs and they were amazing and I was like, “Wait, what?” And now he’s like got all kinds of cuts and like he’s like proper a proper
songwriter in the industry and like making a name for himself. >> Yeah. And he’s so sweet, too. And he’s so young like Yeah. >> No, he’s he’s my little baby. >> Truly like such a great ear for pop music >> for sure. Yeah. He knows his he knows his history. >> Absolutely. So, Hot City Deluxe coming very soon. >> Where can fans find you to get all the updates? >> I’m on all the socials.
It’s just my name, Bonnie McKe. And uh I’m going on tour with Kaisa in August. So come on down. We’re doing the Midwest. And um yeah, and I got a lot more stuff coming out this year. So >> great. Well, we’re looking to Yeah. Yeah. I can’t wait. Bonnie McKe, thank you so much for coming to the podcast. Of course.
It means so much to me to be able to sit with such a pop legend. >> Thank you. So, thank you. >> Thanks. Of course.
